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The whole point of Jesus going to the Cross and being judged for our own sins is so that God wouldn't have to judge us for our own sins. Therefore, since our sins were judged at the Cross, God is not going to condemn us when we get around to actually committing the sin for which Jesus was already judged. The whole point of God imputing His perfect righteousness to those who simply trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and then declaring them justified is because our own righteousness can never be acceptable to God. No one can be eternally saved on the basis of his own righteousness. We can only be saved on the basis of God's own perfect righteousness which He credits to anyone who receives Christ as Savior.
This does not give the believer a license to sin. God will discipline the disobedient believer as a son as Hebrews 12: 5-6 states.
Maybe someone can comment on this which puzzles me. Here are two quotes;
From an article entitled, Case Studies in Easy Believism
Quote:
Christopher Cagan and John Waldrip, after attending Billy Graham's San Diego crusade in 2003, presented a report which determined that "Graham's sermons are an outgrowth of the theology and methods of Charles G. Finney, the 19th Century evangelist who changed the meaning of salvation from Biblical ‘conversion' to the empty ‘decisionism,' which stopped historical revivals and ultimately helped to empty the churches... .
From an interview with Billy Graham in 2013
Quote:
Why, according to the title of your book, is salvation the reason for your hope?
As I approached my 95th birthday, I was burdened to write a book that addressed the epidemic of "easy believism." There is a mindset today that if people believe in God and do good works they are going to Heaven. But there are many questions that must be answered. There are two basic needs that all people have: the need for hope and the need for salvation. It should not be surprising if people believe easily in a God who makes no demands, but this is not the God of the Bible. Satan has cleverly misled people by whispering that they can believe in Jesus Christ without being changed, but this is the Devil's lie. To those who say you can have Christ without giving anything up, Satan is deceiving you. While I am no longer able to stand in the pulpit and deliver a sermon from the Bible, God laid on my heart a burning desire to put this message in book form—a message that resonates within me every time I switch on the news. When I visit with people from all walks of life the question is asked, "What is happening in the world?"
Okay, so here we have Billy Graham being described as an easy believism evangelist. Yet Billy Graham feels so strongly against easy believsim he wrote a book warning of it's dangers.
Since Clear Lens is a student of ancient manuscripts (as a hobby), I think he has a better picture on what the early church believed.
There was a lot of legalism in the early Church as the apostle Paul pointed out. The issue is what does the Bible teach. And the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. Ephesians 2:8-9.
I give no credence to some hobbyist who doesn't understand the issue any better than you do. My learning is from pastor/teachers who understand and believe the Scriptures, and who know the original languages and the history of the church.
The modern, popular view is that a Christian can be carnal--but nowhere in the Bible does it speak of a carnal Christian.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I brethren (fellow brothers in Christ) could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (sarkinos; carnal men) as to infants in Christ (spiritually immature believers in Christ). 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly (sarkikos; carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly (sarkikos; carnal), and are you not walking like mere men (unbelievers)?
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4559 sarkikós– fleshly (carnal). 4559 (sarkikós) pertains "to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires" (L & N, 1, 41.42). See 4561 /sarks ("flesh"). Strong's Greek: 4559. ???????? (sarkikos) -- pertaining to the flesh, carnal
So much for your claim Dresden that the Bible does not speak of carnal Christians. For it does indeed speak of carnal Christians.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I brethren (fellow brothers in Christ) could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (sarkinos; carnal men) as to infants in Christ (spiritually immature believers in Christ). 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly (sarkikos; carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly (sarkikos; carnal), and are you not walking like mere men (unbelievers)?
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4559 sarkikós– fleshly (carnal). 4559 (sarkikós) pertains "to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires" (L & N, 1, 41.42). See 4561 /sarks ("flesh"). Strong's Greek: 4559. ???????? (sarkikos) -- pertaining to the flesh, carnal
So much for your claim Dresden that the Bible does not speak of carnal Christians. For it does indeed speak of carnal Christians.
Other viewpoints:
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"For we (Christians) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before prepared that we should walk in them." It is this class of teachers that have been the proponents of the "carnal Christian" doctrine. They have misused one passage of scripture to divert the whole course of New Testament teaching.
The use of the term "carnal Christian" unavoidably implies a habitual state of carnality, and it is from any such constant state that regeneration is represented as being the alternative, the antithesis. For carnality to be a habitual characteristic is a sure indication of the dominion of sin. But we are plainly told by the Apostle:
"For sin shall not have dominion over you. Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . . Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Rom. 6:14, 16, 18).
It is a serious thing for any Christian teacher to water down the implications of regeneration. For in so doing he conveys a false hope: he comforts the self-deluded individual who thinks he is saved and is not: he condones sin and lowers the standards of discipleship: he does despite to the Spirit of Grace and even to the divine character, because he asserts (in effect) that one can be "a partaker of the Divine nature" and continue in a course of fleshliness: he implies that one can "eat his cake and have it too," or that he can successfully serve both God and Mammon. He sets forth the spiritual walk as preferable but the carnal as passable. SAY THEY; that there are three classes of men, the natural man, the carnal man and the spiritual man. The natural man is, of course, the unsaved child of the world. The carnal man is a saved man who, however, still walks in the flesh. The spiritual man is the higher quality of saved man, who walks in the Spirit and in the course of obedience. (A book by Lewis Sperry Chafer called "He that is Spiritual" and the notes in the Scofield Bible on pages 1213-14 have been two great contributors to this widespread error. - ED.)
The Eighth Chapter of Romans Much of this is directly contrary to the teaching of the 8th Chapter of Romans. In the first verse of that chapter those in Christ Jesus" are declared to be the ones who "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." This great chapter is dealing with the believer's walk, and repeatedly that which is "after the flesh" is shown to be distinct from that which is of the Spirit or "after the Spirit." The Greek preposition kata is defined in Thayer: "according to anything as a standard, agreeably to." Then, "For they that are after the flesh (do according to the flesh as a standard) do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit." Thayer gives an alternate translation of "they that are after the flesh," "they that bear, reflect, the nature of the flesh." "For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the spirit is life and peace."
Let us note that they that bear the nature of the flesh, mind the flesh, while they that bear the nature of the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit. The verb "mind" then changes to it's cognate noun, and we are told that "the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit is, life." Nothing could be plainer. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Those that bear the nature of the flesh are in a state of death, while those that bear the nature of the Spirit are in a state of life. Being "after the flesh", is equated with the "mind of the flesh," and the "mind of the flesh" is equated with DEATH.How then can there be such a thing as a "carnal Christian" or a "Christian" who operates according to the flesh-principle as a habitual thing, as the use of the adjective inevitably implies? A Christian is a Christ-one, a person in whom the Divine "Zoe" (life) has been wrought by reason of union with the Only One since the fall of Adam who possessed this precious Life. The carnal principle is related inseparably to Death, while the Christian is inseparably related to Life.
Verse nine of Romans eight emphasizes the same truth: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." We are told here so clearly that in whomsoever the Spirit of God dwells, that one is "in the Spirit" as regards the principle of his walk, and has ceased to be "in the flesh" as regards the principle of his walk. This is its obvious meaning in the light of the context. Here "in the flesh" speaks of a Spiritual condition while in II Cor. 10:3 the expression "in the flesh" refers to a physical condition. In the latter passage the same apostle is showing that though we still go around in a physical body our spiritual warfare is not "according to the flesh." The latter expression always is used in a spiritual sense, while the former ("in the flesh") is used in both a physical and a spiritual sense.
In Romans 8:9 we are told that to belong to Christ, or to be a Christian, one must possess the Indwelling Spirit, and that one possessing the Indwelling Spirit, is not "in the flesh" but "in the Spirit," speaking of the principle or law of one's living. Where then does a "carnal Christian" come in? It is a ghastly contradiction of terms, and a direct contradiction of scripture.
Carnal Christian is an invention of carnal unregenerate, unbelievers to attempt to justify their living in disobedience to God and without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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It is difficult to account for the attitude of these ministers who claim themselves to be teaching that the Divine justification is "by grace through faith" aside and distinct from any work or merit of man. The fathers of the reformation did a very thorough work of rediscovering and setting forth this magnificent doctrine, yet without disparaging the principle of law, or reducing grace to a kind of divine sentimentality, or faith to an empty babble of "taking Jesus as personal Savior." In their zeal to displace the dead works of human righteousness as a cause of salvation, have they not, consciously or unconsciously, discounted the God-wrought righteousness which is its inevitable effect and its immutable objective.
"For we (Christians) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before prepared that we should walk in them." It is this class of teachers that have been the proponents of the "carnal Christian" doctrine. They have misused one passage of scripture to divert the whole course of New Testament teaching.
same source
The Corinthian Christians from various causes had not gone forward in sanctification as they should and their growth in spiritual understanding was so stunted that he had to speak unto them "as unto carnal," with almost the same degree of simplicity as he would declare God's truth to the unsaved. The Greek word translated "carnal" used in verse one is significantly different from the one used twice in verse 3 also translated "carnal." The first is sarkinos and the second and third are sarkikos. There is little difference, but Thayer tells us that the first is the more emphatic. We believe the first refers to the unsaved. Their position and the principle governing may still be "spiritual" but he must speak to them as though to the carnal (sarkinos). "I fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not yet able: nay, not even now are ye able." Obviously it is a matter of growth, which has been unduly arrested. Babies have life, but weak digestion. Then he goes on to say: "For ye are yet carnal (sarkikos) for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are you not carnal (sarkikos) and walk according to man?" This carnal (sarkikos) is not speaking of a principle, or of a state that is irremediable, but of an outcropping of a special manifestation of the flesh - jealousy and strife resulting in sectarian cliquishness. In using the interrogative form, he calls on them to judge the evil themselves. It could be paraphrased positively: "You are acting in a carnal manner, in that you are allowing this spirit of jealousy and strife to spring up, which is shown by one saying, 'I am Paul's man' and another 'I am of Apollos' etc. All such acts are nothing but carnality, and like the men of the world."
Benjamin Whichcote made the remark that if one only has a single scripture on which to base an important teaching, he will probably find on close examination that he has none. This is trebly so when the one portion cited cuts directly athwart the unmistakable teaching of other portions of scripture. We have shown that Romans eight and Galatians five are setting forth the general doctrine concerning the distinction between the Spirit and flesh principles, while the first Epistle of John gives the tests of regeneration, which unmistakably exclude habitual sinning. The term "carnal Christian" implies one who continues in sin as a habitual, constant and settled practice, and is therefore a false and misleading term. We repeat that owing to the old nature that yet abides, there are more or less frequent outcroppings of carnal acts, but the government is changed, the conscience is tender and these occasional reversions to carnality cause a true Christian deep sorrow and penitence of heart. They are sporadic and not constant.
The teaching then of the three classes, natural man, carnal man, and spiritual man is pernicious and is deluding many who are continuing in sin into thinking they are saved. If the spiritual walk is set forth as preferable but the carnal walk possible for a Christian, the evil heart of unbelief will say to itself: "I can sin and yet be saved. If I can be carnal and yet enter heaven, I am content, I will do without rewards." This is all false and the teachers who give such an impression are guilty of false teaching. IT IS THE WORST KIND OF ANTINOMIANISM AND IS PART OF THE BASE ALLOY OF FUNDAMENTALIST INSTRUCTION THAT IS ABROAD TODAY.
The scripture knows of two places - heaven and hell; two beings - God and Satan; two ways -the narrow that leadeth to life, and the broad that leadeth to destruction; two principles of walk - the Spirit principle and the flesh principle. There is no half-way point in any of these.
First Corinthians 3:1-3 is not expounding a general doctrine but reproving a specific outcropping of carnality in a certain place. May the Lord keep us true and faithful, and from whittling down divine principles to suit a miserable human performance, or of watering down God's standards to include the inordinate affections of man.
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation, old things are passed away: behold all things are become new."
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I brethren (fellow brothers in Christ) could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (sarkinos; carnal men) as to infants in Christ (spiritually immature believers in Christ). 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly (sarkikos; carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly (sarkikos; carnal), and are you not walking like mere men (unbelievers)?
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4559 sarkikós– fleshly (carnal). 4559 (sarkikós) pertains "to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires" (L & N, 1, 41.42). See 4561 /sarks ("flesh"). Strong's Greek: 4559. ???????? (sarkikos) -- pertaining to the flesh, carnal
So much for your claim Dresden that the Bible does not speak of carnal Christians. For it does indeed speak of carnal Christians.
A story in the news this week talked about a porn star who is going to be at a fundraiser dinner for the Republican Party in a week or two. She will be there with the President and many of our so-called conservative leaders. She says she is a Christian! She reads her Bible and prays every night. She says that she isn’t as bad as a lot of people and when she acts in those pornographic movies it isn’t really her – she is pretending to be someone else. She says God looks on the heart and she isn’t immoral just because she does those things for the camera. She is a “carnal Christian.”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=44671
All the above is a true story, but very few Christians would accept her testimony as real. They can’t believe that a porn star could be a Christian, but they believe in “carnal Christians.” What hypocrites! They are teaching exactly the same thing as this woman is professing, but they have an imaginary line or limit where you just can’t be a Christian and do those things. They are powerless to condemn this woman because they really believe just like she does. There really is no difference between the lost and saved. A Christian can do anything! Just because he is saved doesn’t mean he can’t be carnal! But I remind you that is just the logic of men, while the Word of God makes a clear difference and very plainly teaches quite the opposite.
There are no carnal Christians, there are simply carnal people and spiritual people. There are people who walk after the flesh and those who walk after the Spirit. Just as God judged his people in the past He will judge this wicked generation for blurring the lines and failing to make a difference between the clean and the unclean.
Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Ezek. 22:26
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I brethren (fellow brothers in Christ) could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (sarkinos; carnal men) as to infants in Christ (spiritually immature believers in Christ). 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly (sarkikos; carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly (sarkikos; carnal), and are you not walking like mere men (unbelievers)?
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4559 sarkikós– fleshly (carnal). 4559 (sarkikós) pertains "to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires" (L & N, 1, 41.42). See 4561 /sarks ("flesh"). Strong's Greek: 4559. ???????? (sarkikos) -- pertaining to the flesh, carnal
So much for your claim Dresden that the Bible does not speak of carnal Christians. For it does indeed speak of carnal Christians.
Quote:
The idea of a carnal Christian comes from I Corinthians 3:1 “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?”
It may surprise some to know that in these verses God is not saying these men are true believers. God is saying (through the apostle Paul) that as babes in Christ they have very little showing of spirituality – if they were indeed babes in Christ. A careful reading of these verses reveals these people were not yet saved; they’re still of the flesh; they’re not really of Christ.
Personally, I’ve never liked the term “carnal Christian”. It’s a contradiction – an oxymoron. We can’t be carnal minded Christians. The Bible declares in I John 3:9, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
If we are a child of God, then we have experienced the new birth in our soul; we have been born of God. From this moment on, in our soul essence we will not want to sin.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I brethren (fellow brothers in Christ) could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (sarkinos; carnal men) as to infants in Christ (spiritually immature believers in Christ). 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly (sarkikos; carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly (sarkikos; carnal), and are you not walking like mere men (unbelievers)?
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4559 sarkikós– fleshly (carnal). 4559 (sarkikós) pertains "to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires" (L & N, 1, 41.42). See 4561 /sarks ("flesh"). Strong's Greek: 4559. ???????? (sarkikos) -- pertaining to the flesh, carnal
So much for your claim Dresden that the Bible does not speak of carnal Christians. For it does indeed speak of carnal Christians.
Are Christians carnal
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This idea has any number of problems. First and foremost is that it divides Christ. It is all well and good to distinguish between the three-fold office of Christ, affirming that He is prophet, priest and king. It is another thing altogether to suggest that one can truly embrace one part of that formula, while passing over another. To embrace the Christ who saves as savior but to reject the Christ who reigns as Lord is to divide Christ.
This notion, secondly, deeply misunderstands how it is that we even come to embrace the saving work of Christ. Because we are, by nature, children of wrath, we are unable, in ourselves, to embrace anything of the work of Christ. Before we can come to Him He must change us first. God the Holy Spirit must change our heart before we can come to faith. This is regeneration, which does not flow from our faith but is the source of our faith.If we have been given a new heart, if our inclination is no longer only toward sin, if we are not only changed by but indwelt by the Spirit, how could we help from growing in grace? He has not only forgiven us, but is cleansing us from all sin (I John 1:9).
Third, this notion cuts off the legs of our assurance. While understanding and affirming the biblical doctrine of God’s saving grace is a critical part of our assurance, it is not enough. The demons, after all, know that Jesus lived a perfect life for us, that He died as a substitute for us, receiving the wrath of the Father due to us for our sins. Our assurance is grounded in our embracing the true gospel, and our changed lives. What sets believers apart from demons and false professors of the true faith is that we are indeed changed. We are not without sin, but we are changed.
Which brings us back to the reality of carnal Christians. The term itself comes from Paul’s admonition to the church at Corinth that the believers there are “carnal.” Do carnal Christians exist? Of course they do. We’re all carnal. That is, we still struggle against our sin nature. We still sin. In that sense all believers are carnal. We are changed by the work of the Spirit, but we are not complete. We are not without sin. Our standard then is not “Am I perfect?” for then no one would qualify as a believer. Instead it is “Am I getting better?” I still struggle against sin. Did I not struggle, were I comfortable with my sin, I would be a carnal “Christian.” That I struggle demonstrates that I am a “carnal” Christian. It is a subtle difference from one perspective. From another it is the difference between eternal life and death.
You have just been SHOWN BY THE WORD OF GOD THAT CHRISTIANS CAN BE CARNAL!!!!
B]1 Corinthians 3:1[/b] And I brethren (fellow brothers in Christ) could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (sarkinos; carnal men) as to infants in Christ (spiritually immature believers in Christ). 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly (sarkikos; carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly (sarkikos; carnal), and are you not walking like mere men (unbelievers)?
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4559 sarkikós– fleshly (carnal). 4559 (sarkikós) pertains "to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires" (L & N, 1, 41.42). See 4561 /sarks ("flesh"). Strong's Greek: 4559. ???????? (sarkikos) -- pertaining to the flesh, carnal
Here is what Paul said. He said that they are brethren. That means they are believers. He said that they are in Christ - they are infants in Christ. That means they are believers.
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Other viewpoints
