The Doctrine of Eternal Security (crucified, presbyterian, believing, prayer)
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So a person who claims to be "saved" can commit a murder, rape, or some other heinous sin and STILL go to Heaven because YOU said that you are going to Heaven. God's opinion doesn't even matter.
Okey Dokey.
I suppose that you could include the man known in the bible as "A man after God's own heart" in your description of a person who "Claims" salvation. King David committed murder and from a human perspective a particularly dastardly one at that. He had a man killed so that he could have that man's wife whom he was sleeping with already.
God's laws of course matter and he has told us what the consequences of our sin will be if we are outside of the Gracious love that He has for His own adopted children.
The bible tells me that Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. We will, just like King David did, face the consequences that our sins bring down on our heads in this life. God's salvation is a great salvation. If I could lose it by my sins than I would be lost and every single other Christian with me.
I'm not saved because I have little sin in my life or that the sin I do have is minor in some human understanding of that idea. In God's eyes, sin is sin and there is no such a thing as a small one. JUST THINK FOR A MINUTE THAT THE ENTIRE FALL OF GOD'S CREATION WAS CAUSED BY EVE EATING ONE SINGLE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.
I'm saved because I'm trusting and believing that the shed blood of Christ is sufficient payment for all of my sins. That is that amazing grace the song is talking about. That grace SAVES and it saves even a wretch like me. Because I AM A SON OF ADAM EVERYTHING I THINK SAY OR DO IS CORRUPTED IN SOME WAY BY SIN. Even my worship, my giving and all of my good deeds are tainted in some way and UNACCEPTABLE to a Holy God. When you gain an understanding of that fact then you know for sure that you are secure in Jesus because you are not trusting in yourself and look only to Him for forgiveness and acceptance. He stands in my place before this Holy God Almighty and on that basis alone I'm a son of God.
Isn't it interesting that God's word warns against falling away, but then men come along and say don't worry because that can't happen, that's impossible. I hate to be so blunt, but that is the kind of thing that Satan might do. Just a few more warnings from the word of God.
2Pe 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Heb 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
So our "Once Saved Always Saved" friends are apparently suggesting that all these warnings can be ignored and that God is lying. I don't think so. He who has ears let him hear.
Isn't it interesting that God's word warns against falling away, but then men come along and say don't worry because that can't happen, that's impossible. I hate to be so blunt, but that is the kind of thing that Satan might do. Just a few more warnings from the word of God.
2Pe 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Heb 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
So our "Once Saved Always Saved" friends are apparently suggesting that all these warnings can be ignored and that God is lying. I don't think so. He who has ears let him hear.
That's a good post even if I don't agree with 100% of it.
I would like to add a few verses to that list.
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." - Revelation 22:12-15
Our works or lack of works determine our reward.
"For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them." - Matthew 25:29
If we don't live a life according to Christs teachings we will not have any treasure stored up in heaven and even the promise we might have had will be taken away.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:21-23
Belief in Christ is not enough to save us.
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." - 1 John 2:3
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." - Micah 6:8
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6
"Forgive them Father, they know not what they do."
Isn't it interesting that God's word warns against falling away, but then men come along and say don't worry because that can't happen, that's impossible. I hate to be so blunt, but that is the kind of thing that Satan might do. Just a few more warnings from the word of God.
2Pe 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Heb 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
So our "Once Saved Always Saved" friends are apparently suggesting that all these warnings can be ignored and that God is lying. I don't think so. He who has ears let him hear.
Not at all. It's just that falling away does not mean what you think it means. Falling away is not falling away from your salvation, but is falling away from grace orientation and into legalism as is stated by Galatians 5:4.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
I have already gone into detail on Gal. 5:4 at the bottom of post #16 and so won't go into it here.
The Hebrews 10 passage speaks of temporal punishment, rather than eternal punishment. Hebrews 10:26-29 goes right back to what is being addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6 which I have already told you involves Jewish believers being pressured by Judaizers to defect from the faith and revert back into Judaism. A Christian who abandons ''the assurance he had at first (Heb. 3:14) and as the writer of Hebrews already said, in effect crucifies the Son of God all over again and subjects Him to open shame as per Hebrews 6:6 (by reverting to the practices of Judaism as some were doing) is deserving of divine retribution. But it is temporal punishment, not loss of salvation that is being referred to. Divine retribution can involve punishment which is worse than immediate death. Lamentations 4: 6-9 gives an example of this as does Deut. 32:19-27.
Isn't it interesting that God's word warns against falling away, but then men come along and say don't worry because that can't happen, that's impossible. I hate to be so blunt, but that is the kind of thing that Satan might do. Just a few more warnings from the word of God.
2Pe 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Heb 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
So our "Once Saved Always Saved" friends are apparently suggesting that all these warnings can be ignored and that God is lying. I don't think so. He who has ears let him hear.
Excellent post. But just as surely there is always an excuse. Someone KNOWS that Hebrews 10 is speaking of temporal punishment. Funny that the author of Hebrews didn't say that in his writing.
There can be no talk of salvation from anyone who makes a confession, has an opportunity to serve God, but instead serves up Satanic works. Faith and works go together. They cannot even be spoken of separately except those who haven't yet found the fullness of God in their own lives. Again and again they will say, "well, works are really nice, and a Christian SHOULD do them, but it's not really necessary to get to heaven."
Those same people criticize Universalists who believe there is a spark of divinity within every human being and God will some day re-unite that spark within Himself. The easy believers have the greater apostasy. Everyone I've read on this thread who claims to be a universalist or a spiritualist, speaks of the need to serve God with works, and that is more pleasing to God than those who try to please with their lips.
Even Paul's confidence for eternal life was in fighting a good fight, finishing his course, and keeping the faith (II Tim 4:7-8). He knew whom he had believed, not that he had believed, and not when he had believed (II Tim 1:12)! Faith in God is no more than devilish faith (Jas 2:19), but faith in your faith is more profane (Rom 9:15-16)! You are saved from condemnation by your position in Christ, to which you were chosen, and which is proven by godliness (Rom 8:1; Eph 1:3-6).
Romans 8: 12-14 NIV:
"Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. FOR IF YOU LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE, YOU WILL DIE, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of body, you will live."
Paul was speaking to CHRISTIANS in these verses and he was not warning them against "temporal" punishment, he was warning them of spiritual death if they lived according to their sinful nature. How could "Christians" be faced with spiritual death once they had already accepted Christ? They could because God expects His followers to live for Him, as imperfectly as that may be.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-09-2013 at 12:13 AM..
Excellent post. But just as surely there is always an excuse. Someone KNOWS that Hebrews 10 is speaking of temporal punishment. Funny that the author of Hebrews didn't say that in his writing.
There can be no talk of salvation from anyone who makes a confession, has an opportunity to serve God, but instead serves up Satanic works. Faith and works go together. They cannot even be spoken of separately except those who haven't yet found the fullness of God in their own lives. Again and again they will say, "well, works are really nice, and a Christian SHOULD do them, but it's not really necessary to get to heaven."
Those same people criticize Universalists who believe there is a spark of divinity within every human being and God will some day re-unite that spark within Himself. The easy believers have the greater apostasy. Everyone I've read on this thread who claims to be a universalist or a spiritualist, speaks of the need to serve God with works, and that is more pleasing to God than those who try to please with their lips.
Even Paul's confidence for eternal life was in fighting a good fight, finishing his course, and keeping the faith (II Tim 4:7-8). He knew whom he had believed, not that he had believed, and not when he had believed (II Tim 1:12)! Faith in God is no more than devilish faith (Jas 2:19), but faith in your faith is more profane (Rom 9:15-16)! You are saved from condemnation by your position in Christ, to which you were chosen, and which is proven by godliness (Rom 8:1; Eph 1:3-6).
Romans 8: 12-14 NIV:
"Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. FOR IF YOU LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE, YOU WILL DIE, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of body, you will live."
Paul was speaking to CHRISTIANS in these verses and he was not warning them against "temporal" punishment, he was warning them of spiritual death if they lived according to their sinful nature. How could "Christians" be faced with spiritual death once they had already accepted Christ? They could because God expects His followers to live for Him, as imperfectly as that may be.
Historically, the theory "perseverance of the saints" (i.e. once saved always saved) is a relatively NEW theory posited first by John Calvin in the 16th century.
by definition, wouldn't a new theory be considered a "tradition of men"?
Let's test the hypothesis, if once saved always saved is TRUE, then history would have to attest to it... meaning the Jesus taught that to the apostles... and the apostles would have taught their disciples and so on and so forth.. what does History say?
Finally, if Paul really taught eternal security, wouldn't he himself be secure and have complete assurance of his own salvation?
1 Corinthians 4:4-5 "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God."
Historically, the theory "perseverance of the saints" (i.e. once saved always saved) is a relatively NEW theory posited first by John Calvin in the 16th century.
by definition, wouldn't a new theory be considered a "tradition of men"?
Let's test the hypothesis, if once saved always saved is TRUE, then history would have to attest to it... meaning the Jesus taught that to the apostles... and the apostles would have taught their disciples and so on and so forth.. what does History say?
Finally, if Paul really taught eternal security, wouldn't he himself be secure and have complete assurance of his own salvation?
1 Corinthians 4:4-5 "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God."
So you're basing your theology off of one quote from Paul, taken out of context? So was Paul lying when he wrote to the Galatians that they were foolish for trying to add works of the Law to the Gospel?
Regarding the argument that one must maintain his faith in order to retain his salvation, I will quote Lewis Sperry Chafer on that issue. Lewis Sperry Chafer was the founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary as well as Professor of Systematic Theology.
Since salvation is always and only a work of God, the only relation man can sustain to it is that of expectation toward the One who alone can undertake and accomplish it. Salvation from the guilt and penalty of sin is wrought for the unsaved the very moment he believes. It is conditioned on a solitary act of faith. Men are not saved, or kept saved, from the consequences of sins because they continue in their faith. Saving faith, as related to this the first aspect of salvation, is a completed transaction. ''For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life'' (John 3:16); ''Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life'' (John 5:24); ''Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved, and thy house'' (Acts 16:31). [Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 6, p.293.]
Needless to say, I agree with Chafer who then goes on to write that the believer, having been saved by faith, must live by faith if he is to live a life of victory. But not in order to maintain his eternal salvation. As stated above, the believer's salvation from the penalty of sin is a completed transaction. The believer is not kept saved by continued faith, but by the power of God.
I'll stick with the Bible. As I have shown, Faith is the access to Grace. If you lose your Faith then the path to Grace is gone and therefore the Salvation that comes with Grace.
I'll stick with the Bible. As I have shown, Faith is the access to Grace. If you lose your Faith then the path to Grace is gone and therefore the Salvation that comes with Grace.
I agree trettep. I also believe that if you lose your faith, grace is no longer your experience.
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There's always an excuse, auggie
