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I just added this to post #6, and will repeat it here.
By the way, since you mentioned J. Dwight Pentecost, and claim that he taught a countdown of the last generation based upon Matthew 24:32-34 beginning with the establishment of Israel in 1948 and then 1967, here is what he actually writes;
Since the church is given the hope of an imminent return of Christ there can be no signs given to her as to when this event will take place. Therefore we pass by the subject of ''the signs of the times'' in reference to the closing days for the church. [Things to Come, J. Dwight Pentecost, published in 1958; chap IV., section C, The close of the present age, p.155]
This is what I said in post #2.
No it does not mean that the rapture has to immediately precede the beginning of the Tribulation. The event which begins the Tribulation is the signing of a peace treaty with Israel by the prince who is to come as mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27. The signing of the peace treaty or covenant with the many begins Daniel's 70th week. This could take place years after the church has been raptured. Once the rapture occurs, the man of lawlessness can appear. That does not mean that he immediately makes a covenant with Israel. In fact, he will probably rise to power as a result of restoring order in the world after the mess that will probably occur as a result of the rapture. This will take time.
The rapture could have occurred at any point in the history of the Church, and then the Tribulation could have occurred at some point after that after whatever amount of time was necessary to set up for the Tribulation. Historically it didn't happen that way, but it could have.
And the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 is not a reference to Israel. That is simply a common assumption which is not true. Jesus used the example of the fig tree to show that just as when its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that Summer is near, so also, when the signs which occur during the Tribulation appear, it will be known that Christ's return is near. Again, everything in Matthew chapters 24 and 25 occurs in the Tribulation which occurs at some point, but not necessarily immediately after the church has been removed from the earth.
Well, again you are contradicting everything Lindsey, et. al taught in their books. Now you singled out Pentecost. Good catch. But I still have at least a dozen authors who start their book with the rapture occurring, followed immediately by mayhem, chaos, and the start of the tribulation. Even the "wildly popular series "Left Behind" follows this scenario. If all this is false why are these "Christian" authors spreading lies and misconceptions. Could it be to earn a buck or two, I wonder? Rhetorical question. Doesn't really require an answer.
PS I'm sure the mods are pulling their hair out on this thread and saying, "Watch these two. They're totally bonkers."
It isn't often Mike and I get the chance to waltz with each other. I'm sorta enjoying it, even if we are stepping on each other's toes all the time. I MUST be bonkers.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-04-2013 at 03:57 PM..
Reason: addition
Well, again you are contradicting everything Lindsey, et. al taught in their books. Now you singled out Pentecost. Good catch. But I still have at least a dozen authors who start their book with the rapture occurring, followed immediately by mayhem, chaos, and the start of the tribulation. Even the "wildly popular series "Left Behind" follows this scenario. If all this is false why are these "Christian" authors spreading lies and misconceptions. Could it be to earn a buck or two, I wonder? Rhetorical question. Doesn't really require an answer.
PS I'm sure the mods are pulling their hair out on this thread and saying, "Watch these two. They're totally bonkers."
It isn't often Mike and I get the chance to waltz with each other. I'm sorta enjoying it, even if we are stepping on each other's toes all the time. I MUST be bonkers.
It's not a numbers game. And it's not about the motives of any particular person or persons. The issue is whether or not the rapture is going to happen. The Bible says there will be a rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
You say that I am contradicting Lindsey and others. But in declaring that there will be no rapture, you are contradicting the Bible.
It's not a numbers game. And it's not about the motives of any particular person or persons. The issue is whether or not the rapture is going to happen. The Bible says there will be a rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
You say that I am contradicting Lindsey and others. But in declaring that there will be no rapture, you are contradicting the Bible.
But you ARE contradicting Lindsey's writings, aren't you?
The anti-Christ reigns presently, as there have been many; not a few or one.
However, it was Jesus who put an end to the Sacrifices, after 3-1/2 years.
"There is no gap theory!"
You cannot take what Christ has accomplished, completed, or finished.
And apply it to a Future Devil or Anti-Christ. Good grief, Captain Marvel?
I am not interested in what Lindsey writes, and have no idea what he currently believes. I am interested in what the Bible says.
And you miss or ignore the point which is that you do not believe the Bible which says that the Church will be raptured.
And with that, I am done here.
Nowhere does the Scriptures teach that the Church will raptured.
Unless of course one follows the doctrines of Darby, who influenced Scofield.
And then, there is Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and the famous Pastor John Hagee?
Actually, the list is more extensive, but there really isn't a reason to continue.
2THESS 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him [the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him is at the same time], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you [which many are doing but mostly by ignorance] by any means: for that day [same day for both] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
The Church will see the rise of the Antichrist and his confederated nations who oppose Israel before the return of Christ and our gathering to Him. Even now we are seeing the seeds of that confederation. Jerusalem is the "City of the great King" and Satan wants to rule over the congregation in the sides of the north of Mt. Zion which is where Jerusalem started as a city. It is a spiritual battle set among men and the victory belong to those who follow the banner of Christ.
IS 14:13-15 "For you [Satan] have said in your heart, I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High. Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." When Christ returns He will bind Satan in hell for a thousand years.
MT 24:2931 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His Angels with a great sound of a trumpet [the 7th trumpet of Revelation], and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
This is very clear truth but many are deceived and continue to deceive with their own version of Scripture.
Well, again you are contradicting everything Lindsey, et. al taught in their books. Now you singled out Pentecost. Good catch. But I still have at least a dozen authors who start their book with the rapture occurring,
Well, if dimestore biblical themed books is good, then I have DAVINCI CODE that says the whole faith is pointless and a lie.
I am not interested in what Lindsey writes, and have no idea what he currently believes. I am interested in what the Bible says.
And you miss or ignore the point which is that you do not believe the Bible which says that the Church will be raptured.
And with that, I am done here.
Well, okay, Mike you made your point. And I'm sure your intention wasn't to change anyone's minds in here, because you won't. 99% of Christians including myself were taught from the time we could walk that the rapture immediately precedes the tribulation. That's what we were taught and what we believed. That's what every major author on prophecy teaches. And sadly you are just a lone voice in the wilderness with the idea that Jesus was not speaking about the rapture when He said, "But of that day and hour knows no man" That's the first defense a pro-rapture Christian will put up and it is tied to Jesus talking about the fig tree putting forth leaves, meaning the founding of Israel in 1948 and how that generation would not pass until ALL THINGS, and if the rapture precedes the tribulation, then ALL THINGS obviously includes the rapture--until ALL THINGS ARE FULFILLED.
And since that generation has already passed either Jesus was a failed prophet or He wasn't referring to anything happening beyond 70 AD. Again, there will be no rapture, because the generation in which it should have happened---1948-2008 has come and gone.
And since that generation has already passed either Jesus was a failed prophet or He wasn't referring to anything happening beyond 70 AD. Again, there will be no rapture, because the generation in which it should have happened---1948-2008 has come and gone.
No, because the day and hour of His return would not be known He said and so that statement is the exception to what would be known and fulfilled. All these things means all except what He exempted to know. Same as saying you can have all the money in my pocket except the gold coin.
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Rhetorical question. Doesn't really require an answer.
