Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
How do we know the Methodist didn't make up the story and forge records indicating he was suspended from the Methodist Church simply because the Methodist were embarrassed by his KKK activities?
What I really struggle to understand is why people, who are not members care so much about what goes on in the LDS church or what we believe? I am not a member of the Catholic church so I really don't care what they believe, have written or how they worship. So, why should you care? If you really, sincerely want to know what we believe, why not talk to a church authority or an official representative? When I was sincerely searching for a church to join, that's what I did. I didn't go to a Baptist preacher to learn about being a Muslim. I didn't go to Catholic priest to learn about being a Mennonite. I didn't go to a Rabbi to learn about being a Jehovah's Witness. I went right to the churches on Sunday to visit and learn and see for myself. Only after researching the church for over a year did I finally join. All along the way people would stop by my home, call me on the phone to tell me what quote they've found or what they'd "heard" about those mormons. Actually, the more strange things I heard about the church, the more curious I became. Still, after really getting to know people, I made up my own mind and joined. I don't understand why people can't allow others to think for themselves and find out what's true for themselves. It always seems so strange to have others (non members) telling me what I believe when I've lived it (meaning actually attending church, reading and studying the doctrine) for so long. It would be similar to a man who has been in the marines for 20 years, have a civilian come along who just so happened to read some article, begin telling this marine what he does in his job. Even if you used to be a member and don't like the church now, isn't it fair to say that you are a minority considering the large number of members who actually remain? Furthermore, if a person is really happy with their religion, why would they spend so much time investigating and researching old quotes from another persons faith? I'm not interested in how Baptists perform their wedding ceremonies because I'm not baptist and do not plan on being married to one. I'm not interested in what Catholics did during the dark ages because I'm not Catholic. So, please help me understand why what mormons believe and what mormons do and what mormons have said in the past is so deeply important but not what other churches have done or said in the past?
Annibelle,
First, let me say that I can appreciate how annoying it would be to have other people trying to tell you what you believe. That would drive me crazy! The nerve! Even if people have correct information about what the Mormon church teacher or used to teach on a given subject, obviously you are the only expert on what you as an individual believe.
I think there are several different reasons why people are concerned about what Mormons believe. Not all reasons apply to all people. Some people honestly believe that one's religious beliefs determine where one spends eternity. They are desperate to convert others to their way of thinking because they think that only then will others be saved or exalted (or go to the Celestial Kingdom). Oftentimes, their zeal translates into less than charitable behavior, and that is really unfortunate.
Others are interested in or concerned about what Mormons believe because they have Mormon friends and relatives. Granted, asking the Mormons themselves would be a good way to find out many of the answers, but maybe they've heard rumors about what Mormons think and are worried that the Mormons they know will be offended if they ask. (What exactly is the polite way to ask a close friend if their church is racist?) Or maybe they don't know the Mormons all that well. This is not unique to Mormons. I myself am curious about different religious groups, such as the Amish or Orthodox Jews. I read books about them, but usually feel it is too intrusive to ask questions about religious beliefs when I encounter Amish or Jewish people on the street.
Others are perhaps interested because they are looking for a new church. Maybe they are taking the missionary discussions or attending church, but they are also interested in the other side of the story. Just as when, for example, you are looking for a new doctor you are interested in hearing from those who left his practice as well as the satisfied patients.
As for former Mormons, I really don't see that it matters if we are a minority. We provide our perspectives, just as the current Mormons provide theirs. It is up to individual readers to evaluate what is written and combine it with knowledge gained from other sources.
First, let me say that I can appreciate how annoying it would be to have other people trying to tell you what you believe. That would drive me crazy! The nerve! Even if people have correct information about what the Mormon church teacher or used to teach on a given subject, obviously you are the only expert on what you as an individual believe.
I think there are several different reasons why people are concerned about what Mormons believe. Not all reasons apply to all people. Some people honestly believe that one's religious beliefs determine where one spends eternity. They are desperate to convert others to their way of thinking because they think that only then will others be saved or exalted (or go to the Celestial Kingdom). Oftentimes, their zeal translates into less than charitable behavior, and that is really unfortunate.
Others are interested in or concerned about what Mormons believe because they have Mormon friends and relatives. Granted, asking the Mormons themselves would be a good way to find out many of the answers, but maybe they've heard rumors about what Mormons think and are worried that the Mormons they know will be offended if they ask. (What exactly is the polite way to ask a close friend if their church is racist?) Or maybe they don't know the Mormons all that well. This is not unique to Mormons. I myself am curious about different religious groups, such as the Amish or Orthodox Jews. I read books about them, but usually feel it is too intrusive to ask questions about religious beliefs when I encounter Amish or Jewish people on the street.
Others are perhaps interested because they are looking for a new church. Maybe they are taking the missionary discussions or attending church, but they are also interested in the other side of the story. Just as when, for example, you are looking for a new doctor you are interested in hearing from those who left his practice as well as the satisfied patients.
As for former Mormons, I really don't see that it matters if we are a minority. We provide our perspectives, just as the current Mormons provide theirs. It is up to individual readers to evaluate what is written and combine it with knowledge gained from other sources.
Well, he certainly proved to be efficient in his role as the leader of the KKK.
Which is probably why he was inefficient according to the Methodist church. Probably not a good multi-tasker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL
Finally, I don't care whether he was efficient enough to satisfy the Methodist; he was a Methodist.
Sure you do.. you brought it up. He also played chess and was in a chess club.. so by your line or reasoning all chess players are racists. I can dig that. I get it.. the black vs the white thing on the chess board..
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL
In fact, as far as I know, only people of the various Protestant denominations can be members of the KKK.
Well I'm assuming if you are a racist organization you are going to be pretty selective in your membership.. I don't know though.. Just a guess..
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL
So, by applying Sun's line of reasoning, Protestants must be racists.
Well.. then we are all racists because I put Mormon under the definition of protestants..
Oh, and one final note. How do we know the Methodist didn't make up the story and forge records indicating he was suspended from the Methodist Church simply because the Methodist were embarrassed by his KKK activities?
Could be.. but he was suspended before he started his KKK activities. That would mean the Church had knowledge of the future pertaining to what ole' Willie was going to do. I like the Methodist church and all but I don't think they are that smart.
I do appreciate the tactic you have outlined. Turn about is fair play. The problem is it doesn't make any sense. You are comparing a Church doctrine to the participation of one man in a racist organization. The Church doctrine was there until 1978.
If you can come up with a church doctrine from the Methodist church that says as much.. then I'll call them racist too. I have no problem with that.
The funny thing is I pretty much tend to believe that most people back then were racist (including Methodists, Catholics, Baptists etc)... but it wasn't written down as Church doctrine.
I think that there is just an overwhelming line of defense when it comes to race and the lds. Instead of saying in 1978 that God spoke and changed things.. why not just say.. what we were doing was wrong.. (along with all the other denominations that practiced racism in any way).. we recognize that.. we are changing it and we are moving on.
But just to play along I'll provide the links on the evil side of Methodists!
Methodist News - Institute on Religion and Democracy (broken link)
UMW - Racial Justice History (http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umw/work/social-action/racial-justice/racial-justice-history/ - broken link)
In the end I don't think the LDS church is presently "racist". I think there are many things (such as changing the prologue in the Mormon book and changing a rule in 1978) that seem to show that the LDS church leadership looked back on their texts and said "know what.. it does seem to be a little on the racy side.."
Thus changes were made. So be it and I'm glad they did. However, not acknowledging these things happened just makes people like me go.. " Hmmmmmmmm"
Could be.. but he was suspended before he started his KKK activities. That would mean the Church had knowledge of the future pertaining to what ole' Willie was going to do. I like the Methodist church and all but I don't think they are that smart.
Actually, this was tounge in cheek conspiracy stuff. Mormon haters accuse the LDS Church of post-dating material to make things look good, so my conspiracy theory was the Methodist kicked our boy out after he became associated with the KKK and post dated the material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty
I do appreciate the tactic you have outlined. Turn about is fair play. The problem is it doesn't make any sense. You are comparing a Church doctrine to the participation of one man in a racist organization. The Church doctrine was there until 1978.
Again, more tounge in cheek, but since you bring up the subject of doctrine, during the slave trade period, most Protestant churches used the connection between Africans being descendants of Ham, who is connected to Cain, to justify salvery.
First, let me say that I can appreciate how annoying it would be to have other people trying to tell you what you believe. That would drive me crazy! The nerve! Even if people have correct information about what the Mormon church teacher or used to teach on a given subject, obviously you are the only expert on what you as an individual believe.
I think there are several different reasons why people are concerned about what Mormons believe. Not all reasons apply to all people. Some people honestly believe that one's religious beliefs determine where one spends eternity. They are desperate to convert others to their way of thinking because they think that only then will others be saved or exalted (or go to the Celestial Kingdom). Oftentimes, their zeal translates into less than charitable behavior, and that is really unfortunate.
Others are interested in or concerned about what Mormons believe because they have Mormon friends and relatives. Granted, asking the Mormons themselves would be a good way to find out many of the answers, but maybe they've heard rumors about what Mormons think and are worried that the Mormons they know will be offended if they ask. (What exactly is the polite way to ask a close friend if their church is racist?) Or maybe they don't know the Mormons all that well. This is not unique to Mormons. I myself am curious about different religious groups, such as the Amish or Orthodox Jews. I read books about them, but usually feel it is too intrusive to ask questions about religious beliefs when I encounter Amish or Jewish people on the street.
Others are perhaps interested because they are looking for a new church. Maybe they are taking the missionary discussions or attending church, but they are also interested in the other side of the story. Just as when, for example, you are looking for a new doctor you are interested in hearing from those who left his practice as well as the satisfied patients.
As for former Mormons, I really don't see that it matters if we are a minority. We provide our perspectives, just as the current Mormons provide theirs. It is up to individual readers to evaluate what is written and combine it with knowledge gained from other sources.
Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe you ask the wrong questions? Asking an LDS member if their church was racist would be like me investigating the Catholic church (because I do enjoy listening to the pope whenever he speaks publicly, he's wonderful) and asking members are all of your male church leaders pediophiles? If you have to ask such a question then maybe, just maybe your looking in the wrong direction. I knew full well what people were saying about the LDS church before I joined. When I finally decided to pray about joining I didn't ask anything about the 1978 revelation, verses concerning white, fair or black skin in the Book of Mormon or what Brigham Young said about blacks in the 1800's. My thinking was, if the church is really true, then what does it matter to me what happened in 1978? Again, if your really serious about learning about a religion, wouldn't go directly to the church? That's why the church has full time missionaries. They're specifically for people just like you who have these questions. Still, I'd never go to a Catholic and start telling them and trying to prove to them that all priests are perverts. I wouldn't even ask. I wouldn't ask them questions about what type of scandals occurred in the Catholic church during the dark ages and such. It still seems kind of strange to me. Even when LDS members try to explain what we believe, it's often shot down, someone insinuates that we're lying or changing history. Strange. I'm just reading the comments and trying to figure out if people really want to know something about the church or are some people just on the board to constantly put the LDS church down any chance they get. Like I said, I've been a member almost 20 years. I don't consider myself to be ignorant or blind of truth. If I, a person of African descent, can be LDS for that long, how can anyone insinuate that the church is racist? To imply that would mean that you're trying to tell me what I believe is something else. Why would I stay? I'm not learning disabled. If people treated me like dirt all of the time, I'd leave. I understand doctrine. I could even explain it to you why the church may seem racist to some, but it seems like many people wouldn't be satisfied anyway.
Last edited by annibelle; 01-08-2008 at 08:56 PM..
Reason: corrections
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Bruce R. Mckonkie make a comment before he died about his comments about people of African descent like, "forget about what was said before, we were living off limited light." To me, it seems like he was saying that he was wrong, he's a changed man in his thinking about black LDS members. Didn't he die in the 1980's or something? I don't know for sure. All I'm saying is that it was a long time ago. The black LDS members have forgiven and forgotten. Why can't non members do the same? Is it fair to hold on to something very wrong that a person said even after they thoroughly changed their position? Is it fair to cling to those words so long after the person admitted they were wrong, made amends and died so very long ago? It's similar to what people think of Malcolm X. He did have a lot of racist beliefs when he was a young muslim. But later in life, before he died, he changed his views. He was shot for it by the way. Anyway, people still only tend to remember that young, militant part of his life and not the latter time when he changed his mind about many of his views toward white people. Is that fair?
Actually, this was tounge in cheek conspiracy stuff. Mormon haters accuse the LDS Church of post-dating material to make things look good, so my conspiracy theory was the Methodist kicked our boy out after he became associated with the KKK and post dated the material.
Again, more tounge in cheek, but since you bring up the subject of doctrine, during the slave trade period, most Protestant churches used the connection between Africans being descendants of Ham, who is connected to Cain, to justify salvery.
I know.. thats why I said "I do appreciate the tactic you have outlined. Turn about is fair play."
I know this thread is long dead, but I couldn’t help but note that the entire discussion is based on a false premise. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never excluded anyone from anything, based on the color of their skin. The policy is—and always has been—simple:
(Pre-1978 Version)
1) Most individuals of black African descent are also of Canaanite descent.
2) Someday, people of Canaanite descent will be allowed to receive Priesthood ordinations, while in mortality. Unfortunately, for some reason unbeknownst to us, that day hasn’t arrived yet.
3) Per 1 and 2, most individuals of black African descent may not yet hold the Priesthood.
3a) This does not include all black people of African descent, which is why some black people of African descent have been ordained to the Priesthood.
3b) Even if it did, it does not include any people that are black, but not of African descent—which is why many black people, not of African descent, have been ordained to the Priesthood.
3c) It does include white people of African descent—and red, and yellow, and even neon green, if you happen to find any—which is why many whites, reds, yellows, etc. of African descent are not yet permitted to hold the Priesthood.
(Post-1978 Version)
1) Most individuals of black African descent are Canaanites.
2) Following decades of supplication, God has agreed that Canaanites may now hold the Priesthood while in mortality, just like everybody else.
3) There is no 3.
The fact that it’s been erroneously oversimplified to “blacks couldn’t hold the Priesthood” has been the source of a lot of heartache and ridiculous supposition. I just wish people would look at the actual history and see what the polity actually was.
HTH!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hmmmmmmmm"
Let it go
