Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But a person isn't ... so that is why scriptures teach:
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Isn't it interesting that the "we" includes Paul and fellow saved believers?
Looks like some think they knew more than Paul about abandoning salvation.
Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right." verifies that scripture teaches that people do in fact resist grace.
Psalm 21:7 says nothing of them resisting Grace--it only says they sin.
Quote:
Thus the " I " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural
Nope. Sorry.
Quote:
I=irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect.
Psalm 21:16 " A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead" verifies from scripture that people do in fact fall from faith because his own doing and is sent to hell for it.
Actually, no. 1 John 2:19 states that if they fall from the faith, their faith was never true to begin with.
Quote:
Thus the " P " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural
P=perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith.
*** note: Psalm 21:16 is referenced to Ezekiel 18:24 as substantiation
Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?
None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.
Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
John 10:27-28 states that his sheep now his voice, follow him, and he doesn't lose any. That means no...we won't stray. If we're really of him, that is.
Chosen means to be elected as having a quality that God can use in His kingdom as a ruler/king, priests. Saved does not dictate that we shall be all worthy of judging and ruling. Many are called, but few are chosen. If every one who said they were a believer in Christ was chosen before the foundation OF THE NEW EARTH to come being raised up in STANDARDS as kings and priests, then who would they rule over if the wicked do not come back on the restored earth? God hopes for all men to come unto repentance and be saved, but He knows the hearts of men that they all won't, but He is patient in hoped their hearts will change.
Esau and Cain represent the fallen man who's only concern is with their own needs and not of others walking in the beastly nature of dog eat dog.
Abel and Jacob on the other hand represent those who have faith in God who give the best & firstfruits of their possessions BACK to the God they know gave it to them(blessed them with) and are willing, like Jacob, to wrestle all night long with the Word(Jesus) to obtain the Blessing.
God has made it perfectly clear that He is not a respecter of persons and at any time one can turn from their wicked ways and begin to walk in a more blessed life for obedience to His Word/Christ and come out of the hell whole THEY have put themselves in. Many say it is wrong for God to threaten with hell, but that is because they do not realize that He is a just God that never changes, and that He is not threatening, He is giving a heads up so that they don't go there. If we are living a hellish life, we have not overcome our flesh and it is holding us down in the dust of the earth in the condition of what we call "LOW LIFE".
Jesus came to teach us the ways of God's standards to tear down our old temple(beastly nature) and raise us back up in God's Word which must be the foundation of God's temple in integrity, godly character so that God can use us in His kingdom as one's of authority IN HIS WORD/Christ to keep His Word alive in the earth so the darkness stays far from us because the LIGHT of the world/Jesus/The Word is what is making us shine and bask in God's glory! When God said, Let there be light, He was not talking about the sun or moon, they were not created until the 4th day. He was talking about His Word whom we call Jesus who is the Light of the world because God's Word is the Truth that sets us FREE from walking in sin to our destruction..
The Cain's in the world CAN/Cain raise up their standards but they won't, Yet the Abel's are ABLE : )
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV
2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
KJV
John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
KJV
Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
KJV
1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV
The chosen to be kings and priests of the 1st resurrection, shall inherit the Bride which is heavenly Jerusalem our mother Gal.4:26 Rev.21:9 and live in the City but all others who like the Eunuch who was just happy being saved, shall come back in the second resurrection meaning the GWTJ when the BOOKS including the Book of life are opened up and be the saved nations because they did not GROW in Christ, they just believed.
Last edited by afaithfulone4u; 11-06-2013 at 01:09 PM..
Reason: added more and corrected something
Everything considered and beyond all doubt, an individual is part of the whole; collectively.
So, what part of a whole number, encompassing all there is, do you people not comprehend?
Originally Posted by twin.spin
which the "I P" of TULIP is unscriptural.
Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right." verifies that scripture teaches that people do in fact resist grace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Psalm 21:7 says nothing of them resisting Grace--it only says they sin.
yea right ..... read it till it sinks in
Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right."
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Thus the " I " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Nope. Sorry.
Yup ... and I'm not sorry.
__________________________________________________ __________
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Psalm 21:16 " A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead" verifies from scripture that people do in fact fall from faith because his own doing and is sent to hell for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Actually, no. 1 John 2:19 states that if they fall from the faith, their faith was never true to begin with.
And John 1 John 2:19 is a different subject matter than Psalm 21:16 is talking about. But that's what Calvinistic teachers must do to substantiate their unscriptural teaching.
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Thus the " P " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural
P=perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith.
*** note: Psalm 21:16 is referenced to Ezekiel 18:24 as substantiation
Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?
None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.
Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
John 10:27-28 states that his sheep now his voice, follow him, and he doesn't lose any. That means no...we won't stray. If we're really of him, that is.
And since God warns about "remain faithful to the very end" ... then you are implying what Jesus does not.
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
and the writer of Hebrews is correct is because Jesus taught in John 15:4-6
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
I also want to add that you mentioned why did God give us free will if He could just create us to love Him. It is true, that just as we do not want to MAKE someone love us, neither does our Father.
Yet you will notice that the angels are called the son's of God and this is how God raises them up to be son's by having us grow IN His Word/Son. We have been created to become as the angels, IF, we have the RIGHT STUFF, meaning a quality that God sees in us when we are children or babes that first receive milk, then grow more to be able to receive the MEAT of Christ or the Word as we grow up in the image(attributes) of God. The Bible tells us that the whole of creation is awaiting the birth of the son's of God and that God is the one who is conducting it all.
Rom 8:15-22
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
KJV
Luke 20:35-36
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
KJV
We are raised up by the Word of God from the Dead(let the dead bury their own dead) for he Jesus is the resurrection and the life. You can not come to the Father unless you are willing to receive Christ to be cleansed by THE WORD.
John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in meshall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV
Last edited by afaithfulone4u; 11-06-2013 at 01:47 PM..
Reason: additional input
Originally Posted by twin.spin
which the "I P" of TULIP is unscriptural.
Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right." verifies that scripture teaches that people do in fact resist grace.
yea right ..... read it till it sinks in
Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right."
Yes--we are born sinners. We are at war with God. We do evil in God's eyes. Our hearts are wicked and evil.
But it doesn't say that God can't change our hearts. After all, God moves the heart of the King wherever he wishes (Prov 21:1).
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Psalm 21:16 " A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead" verifies from scripture that people do in fact fall from faith because his own doing and is sent to hell for it.
And John 1 John 2:19 is a different subject matter than Psalm 21:16 is talking about. But that's what Calvinistic teachers must do to substantiate their unscriptural teaching.
Not really. No one is good, and we all do evil -- until God changes our hearts and grants us the faith to believe. We can be good for a time--but we will all stray from the path without true faith and true sanctification through the work of God. If we stray from it, it means that we have never truly been regenerated and we never truly had faith.
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Thus the " P " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural
P=perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith.
*** note: Psalm 21:16 is referenced to Ezekiel 18:24 as substantiation
Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?
None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.
Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
And since God warns about "remain faithful to the very end" ... then you are implying what Jesus does not.
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
There is no discrepancy. The ones that believe will hold firm to the end. The ones that don't? They never were. 1 John 2:19.
Quote:
and the writer of Hebrews is correct is because Jesus taught in John 15:4-6
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
Again...those verses do not say that we can be "in Christ" as a true believer and then stray. It just means that a real believer WILL remain with him.
John wrote that they "went out from among us"...meaning that they were "among us". They apparently had every appearance of a real believer. But they weren't---because if they were a true believer they would have stayed.
Okay y'all, let's rock. I'm tired of hearing people say "I don't know" when I ask questions about election... and when I say "people", I'm talking about pastors. These are people who really should know such things, and instead they claim that they don't.
I'll try to make my explanation brief for why I do not believe in election.
-First of all, man was not created holy. Man was created "in the image of God" but certainly not to the level of holiness of God. Were man holy, man could not have been corrupted by Satan in the Garden of Eden. Man's corruptibility proves that man was not created holy.
-Since man was not created holy, God had to have had His reasons for creating man so. He had it within His power to make man totally perfect, and also to make man unquestionably obedient to Him. There was no reason why man HAD to have been created with free will, and corruptibility, but God decided to make man that way anyway. The only logical reason why this happened was because God's purposes are better served by humans that have the choice of whether or not they will follow Him, than they would have been by humans that were essentially robot slaves.
-The reason for the above can be explained by how man was created in God's image. Being created in God's image means that we share certain attributes with God. That being the case, it can be said, conversely, that God shares certain attributes with humans. This is evinced all over the Bible. For example, God is emotional in many ways. He does not NEED human beings to execute any great plans of His... after all, this is the God that created over 100,000,000,000 galaxies just because He could. His power is infinite and He can do anything that humans can do, better than humans can. So why create humans? Answer: for RELATIONSHIP. Put colloquially, it's lonely at the top. This explains free will as well. A relationship only carries meaning if it is chosen by all parties to it. Think about this - I've read articles stating that there could be humanoid robots by 2050... robots that approximate humans in any way... robots that humans could even have relationships with, and marry. Wouldn't you think it was silly and ludicrous for a man to marry a robot, claim to be in love with a robot, etc? Most people would, for the very reason that it is a robot, and not a human being who is capable of making choices. There's no meaning in a relationship when you can plug your mate into a computer console and reprogram him/her to do your bidding anytime. That is more of a master-slave transactional situation than a relationship.
-Since God created man to have free choice, and to be in relationship with Him, it stands to reason that He must facilitate that relationship. Though God does indeed possess the power to know everything, see everything, etc... the only logical explanation for how He can still have relationships with humans in the way He wishes (as stated in His Word) is that He consciously chooses NOT to know everything. After all, if it is assumed that God always knows, and is always consciously aware of, what we're thinking and what we're going to say even before we say it, then it would stand to reason that there's no point to prayer. (I'll do another thread on this at some point.) Since God wants us to talk with Him, and since God rarely talks back in readily discernible ways like a human would if you were conversing with one, it stands to logic that God chooses to refuse foreknowledge of what we're thinking, sometimes at least, in the name of having a relationship with us. After all, though we may love the notion of knowing what someone else thinks all the time, would that not eventually create boredom because the two people would never have to communicate with each other to know what the other is thinking?
-Figuring that God consciously chooses NOT to know everything, this runs contrary to predestination. I'm finally going to say it - I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION. I feel that every verse and passage quoted in the Bible by those who support predestination can easily be interpreted to mean something else, even without going into the original languages. Here's a good passage for you:
1 Timothy 2:3-6a "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people."
God wants ALL people to be saved. (Predestining some to hell runs totally against this.)
Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for ALL people. (Not just those predestined to heaven, or "the elect". His salvation is available to ALL.)
I could go on, but I choose not to. To give you an idea of why God would not want to know in advance who will accept His salvation and who will not, even if He could determine that, I ask you this. Is there any thrill / enjoyment / excitement in watching a new movie if you already know what happens and how it's going to end, before you watch it? How about reading a new book? Do you read the last chapter first? If you do, you have to admit, you lose a good bit of the excitement. Instead, it's much more enjoyable to indulge in such entertainment when it "draws you in"... keeping you hooked by making you want to know what happens next in the story. I've felt that myself. I have also known many a person who seems to be able to predict the ending of movies, stories, etc... my wife is one such person. They're never excited by anything whose ending they can predict. Where do you suppose the tendency to experience excitement comes from? Yes indeed, 'tis another aspect of God Himself. That's part of being made in God's image.
-The favorite verses quoted by those who believe in election are Romans 9:11-24. Here they are:
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' ' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
God didn't tell Rebekah that He would hate Esau and love Jacob. In Genesis He tells Rebekah that Esau, the elder twin, will serve Jacob, the younger twin... and He said this only when Rebekah asked what was going on inside her body.
God's purpose in election is "not by works, but by Him who calls" - meaning that we cannot get to Heaven of our own works... we must go through Him. God has chosen / called all of us, and if we're to answer that call, we must go through Him. We can't get there by working our way to Heaven, though we do have to do good works to prove that we have the faith necessary to get us there. Works by themselves won't do it, and faith without works is dead. So it is that works & faith together are what we need.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." God is not saying, in this passage, that He will predestine some for heaven and some for hell - He is saying "Don't question what I do. I'm God, you're not, I'm going to do what I choose to do." But remember - 1 John 4:8 is the famous "God is love" verse. If God is love, God will not predestine some people to eternal damnation and punishment. Such is not loving. The only logical way this could be considered loving would be if hell were not punishment for some people... but there's no evidence in the Word attesting to how this condition could be possible.
It doesn't depend upon human desire or effort, but on God's mercy - I can rock with that. How many of you, as kids, tried to get your parents to reduce or remove punishments they'd levied upon you? Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The argument could be made that if you just accepted it and never tried to get it reduced, you'd have had to deal with the whole thing anyway... and by making the effort, you effected the change. However, that is disproven when you consider the times that you failed to effect that change even through your effort. Your effort meant something but ultimately the decision was in the hands of your parents. So it is that your effort to get into God's good graces means something, but the authority for the decision rests entirely with God.
"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " - We shouldn't do this, though most of us have. But this doesn't ask about an eternal destiny. It asks about a present condition. "Why did you make me [short, tall, fat, thin, a blonde, a brunette, a redhead, a man, a woman, etc]"
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" - Sure. But again, this is about present purposes and uses. Says so right there in the verse. We see this all the time in reality.
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
What if? Yeah, what if?
What if... hmm... what if Romney had been elected? What if the earth is flat? What if we never hear about Kim Kardashian again? What if gas goes to $10 per gallon? What if gas goes to $1 per gallon?
What if?
But if we're going to be a bit more serious... what if God had patience with people who invited His wrath through their actions, those people obviously being prepared for destruction because they invited God's wrath, and waited to give them their just desserts so that He could show His wrath and make His power known? You have to admit that sometimes that's the best way to go. Here's a story I've known about for many years:
Here is one I just heard from my husband. A guy where he works "swears" it happened to someone he knew... A bride and a groom are at their wedding reception. Everything is going perfectly when the groom stands up to give a toast. He thanks all the guests for coming and for the stack of presents on the table, then thanks the father of the bride for the beautiful reception. He then tells the guests that he has a surprise for all of them. He instructs them to look under their chairs. They do and find a picture taped to the bottom of each seat. The guests are shocked and horrified! It's a picture of the bride and the best man having sex! The groom says he had a feeling they were having an affair and hired an investigator who took the photo. He then says to the father of the bride, "Thanks for the $30,000 sit-down dinner and party, but I'm out of here." And he walked out. He filed for an annulment the following Monday.
Now, whether or not this story is actually true, you have to admit that this is a much greater punishment than it would have been to call off the wedding at the moment the investigator discovered that the bride was cheating. Instead of reacting immediately, the groom maximized the punishment for the evil action by "bearing with great patience" the bride who was obviously inviting trouble through her actions.
"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"
Of course He prepared the objects of His mercy in advance for glory. Jesus' death on the cross did this. Anyone who accepts God's free gift of saving grace through Jesus will be shown God's mercy through this advance preparation.
"even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
So they were called. And objects of God's mercy could be found in people of Jewish heritage who had accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, and in people of Gentile heritage who had done the same.
NONE OF THIS speaks toward election. There is NO logic at all in the assertion that God predestines some people for heaven and some people for hell, yet each person is still 100% personally responsible for his/her actions. Some have said "that's human logic, not God logic"... okay, then let's look at God logic. There's a reason why the Calvinist - Arminian debate has been raging for centuries. Calvinists say "predestination", Arminians say "humans must choose"... and each side has Bible verses to back its stance. If we assume that the Bible shows no clear winner through God logic, we must then break the tie using "human logic" (which, since we're created in the image of God anyway, is also a form of God logic).
Let's rock. Let's settle this debate once and for all... or at least talk about it to an extent. I'm especially interested in hearing from people who believe in election. I want y'all to answer the following questions. For each question, we will assume in advance that "election" states that God alone determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and there is absolutely nothing that any individual human can do to alter his/her fate or the fate of another. (I've heard this a lot from election supporters.)
1) If we can do nothing to change our fate or the fate of others, why then should we preach / proselytize / evangelize?
2) How is it loving for God to predestine some people to eternal punishment?
3) If God desires all to be saved, why would He predestine some to eternal damnation?
4) If a person is predestined to hell, why is it so terrible that that person "lives it up" while on earth? (Put another way - why should Christians try to stop such a person from sinning?)
We'll start with this. I look forward to your responses.
RomaniGypsy, here are some of your stated beliefs in your post.
1.) That man was not created holy.
2.) You believe that God chooses not to know everything.
3.) You don't believe in Election.
4.) You don't believe in Predestination.
However, your beliefs are not supported by Scripture.
Concerning #1. Your belief that man was not created holy is in error. Adam was created in a condition that was acceptable to God's perfect righteousness, and remained so until he chose to disobey God by violating the one prohibition that God had issued. That prohibition concerned eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The prohibition was given in order to provide Adam's volition with something with which to work. God gave Adam volition. The ability to choose. That required that Adam have the ability to choose to disobey God. God gave Adam volition because man's volition is the issue in resolving the spiritual conflict that began when the angel who became known as Satan used his volition to rebel against God. Though not his actual name, he is generally called Lucifer, so we'll go with that. Lucifer was created perfect as stated in Ezekiel 28:12,15. And yes, Ezekiel 28:12 and following is referring to Satan who was the power behind the throne of Tyre. While Ezekiel 28:1-10 is directly addressing the human ruler of Tyre, beginning with verse 12 Lucifer is addressed. The given descriptions could not apply to any man. Lucifer had been created perfect, blameless in his ways from the day he was created. He was the Cherub angel who covered. The ark of the covenant illustrated this covering. Over the Mercy seat on the ark were two Cherub angels who looked down on the Mercy Seat. These Cherubim represented the righteousness and justice of God. Before he rebelled against God Lucifer was one of the Cherub angels whose function included guarding the holiness of God in the sense perhaps best thought of as an honor guard. But he became proud because of his beauty. This was the original sin in the Universe. Just as Lucifer who had been created perfect used his volition to sin, so also, Adam who had been created perfect and acceptable to God used his volition to sin against God. But God, knowing that Adam would fall, had already in eternity past decreed the means of salvation in which the Second Person of the trinity would come into the world as a man and go to the Cross to pay the judicial penalty for man's sins. When man, who is lower than the angels, and who is confined to the earth, but who has the same volition as the angels who have access to heaven and to the presence of God, uses his volition to respond to God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ, it demonstrates that the angels who rebelled against God are without excuse. God had always known that both the angels and man would fall, which leads to your next comment that you believe that God chooses not to know everything.
Concerning #2.) You believe that God chooses not to know everything. This also is in error. Either God knows everything or He doesn't. It is clearly stated in Scripture that God is perfect in Knowledge (Job 37:16; Psalm 139:1-6; Heb. 4:13). There is nothing that is hidden from His sight. Since God knows everything, there is nothing that He can choose not to know. It is a contradiction in terms.
Concerning #3 and #4) You don't believe in predestination. Election and predestination are actually two sides of the same coin and are both spoken of in Scripture as being true. Let's start with predestination. You assume that predestination refers to God sovereignly deciding to save some to eternal life while deciding to leave others in condemnation irrespective of human volition. But this is not the case. Rather predestination refers to that which those who have of their own volition responded to the gospel by relying on Christ for their eternal salvation are predestined. Romans 8:29 tells us what believers are predestined to, and that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge.
Rom. 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.
Based on His foreknowledge of those who would of their own volition respond to the gospel call in which the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8-11), God predestined the same to be conformed to the image of His Son. The ultimate fulfillment of this will occur when the believer is bodily resurrected which is still future. But everyone who believes on Christ already possesses eternal life in that he has been saved or delivered from the penalty of sin and has been credited with God's own perfect righteousness by which he is eternally secure.
Ephesians 1:5 says that we are predestined to adoption as sons. When we place our faith in Christ Jesus we are adopted as sons into the family of God (John 1:12; Gal. 3:26).
Ephesians 1:11 relates the believer's predestination to his inheritance.
As for election, That refers to being chosen, and it applies to both Israel and the church, as well as to Christ.
1.) Jesus' election: Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-21.
2.) Israel's election: Deut. 7:6 and 14:2; Isa. 41:8-9 and 45:4; Rom. 11:1-2.
You made reference to God hating Esau and loving Jacob. This is mentioned in Malachi 1:2-3 and quoted by Paul in Romans 9:13.
Malachi 1:2 ''I have loved you,'' says the LORD. But you say, ''How have you loved us?'' ''Was not Esau Jacob's brother?'' declares the LORD. ''Yet I have loved Jacob; 3] but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.''
This is related to God's election of Israel. God was simply referring to His sovereign choice that the nation Israel would come through Jacob rather than Esau.
3.) The church's election: Eph. 1:3-4; Col. 3:12.
Both election and predestination are matters of God's sovereignty, but also take into account God's foreknowledge concerning the volitional decisions of man. God has a sovereign purpose which takes cognizance of and incorporates into His predetermined plan man's God given volition.
On the one hand, God chose where in history to place you. God could have caused you to be born a Jew during the age of Israel instead of placing you in the present church age. You had no choice in the matter. But on the other hand, having been born in the church age either as a Jew or as a Gentile, God knew that you would believe on Christ in response to the gospel, which was your choice, and so elected or chose you to be in Christ (Eph. 1:4). Only church age believers are said to be in Christ. That is part of the church's election . . . to be 'in Christ' and therefore part of one body which while consisting of both Jew and Gentile are not delt with as either Jew or Gentile, but as 'Church' - a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), and to have the blessings which are associated with being in Christ - for instance, the royal priesthood of the church age believer. Because Jesus is our great high priest (Heb. 4:14), and we as church age believers are in Christ (Gal. 3:27-28), we are all (church age believers) royal priests (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6 and 5:10) That is a part of the Churches election.
2 Thess. 2:13 says that God chose or elected us from the beginning for salvation. Again, this is based on God foreknowledge as stated in Romans 8:30 which speaks of predestination. Remember that predestination and election are two sides of the same coin.
Both election and predestination are based on God's prior knowledge of the facts. God both elected and predestined to certain things those who of their own volition respond to God's call through the gospel message.
I hope that you can be objective and recognize that election and predestination are clearly taught in the Bible. But if, in view of Scripture, you still disagree, then understand that Scripture does not agree with you.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-06-2013 at 03:24 PM..
See Jesus to save all men , but give man and women freedom to choose to be obedient to the calling to all people to be saved ..... I people thumb their nose at Jesus and His salvation then they will not receive this gift from God , so they will perish as their souls will die in the here after and their spirit will continue to survive in a place which was not the plan to be , as God will only protect those who are obedient to His call and His commands , as there is no pre-destination which is a occult idea ............... And those who are not saved which is the elect when they pass from this life the Angels of God will collect then were they will be judged and then bring their essence to the place which they would not want to be as there will be no protect for the lost to God . , where as those who have Holy Spirit will be protected and judged and brought to a place for orientation will come for their eternal life ................... See the occult ideas of predestination is the condition which God choses who is save and who will be lost which is a false idea contrary to the gospels of Jesus , where as Jesus has condition which people must obey the commands to be saved because heaven is a Holy Place which every thing is prefect in love and goodness , so people who do not believe cannot be purified for heaven
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Doctrine of ELECTION - let's finally sort this one out!
