Doctrine of ELECTION - let's finally sort this one out! (HaShem, testimony)

[RomaniGypsy]

Originally Posted by jghorton

Your very well written (and long) treatise is both interesting and compelling. However, your questions seem to deal only with the doctrine of predestination.

Trying to 'fit' the infinite mind and ways of God into our own finite perceptions, is a daunting challenge. In my mind, God has pre-destined the consequences of mankind's 'free will choice' during this lifetime to love, obey and serve Him .... or not. God does not 'pre-destine/determine' OUR choices, nor does He allow Satan to 'force' us to do anything!

See, I agree with that. Put another way, God has already determined what the reward will be for those who choose Him and what the punishment will be for those who reject Him. That makes sense.

Originally Posted by jghorton

Of course, God has an eternal knowledge of who will ultimately make what choices (precognition), but, WE do not. (God does not operate within the linear concept of time that He created for mankind on this earth). Further, in this 'time' context, I don't believe that God shares man's 'let-down' with already knowing the 'end of the book or movie.' Instead, I believe that God wants us to have the 'eternal benefit' (?) of knowing that we chose Him during this lifetime.

Suppose, instead, that God COULD have that eternal knowledge but instead selectively chooses not to have eternal knowledge of certain things? After all, if God knew that a certain person would not choose Him, why would He continue in any way encouraging Christians to minister to this person? Essentially it'd all be wasted time.

Originally Posted by bartstarr1960

Keep studying. The Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient grace and Calvinistic Free Will are good starting points.

Prevenient grace makes sense. I've studied that. Calvinistic "free will" essentially states that the will is not actually free... that the only true freedom of the will is to select which sin you will commit, since man is totally depraved and unable of his own power to do anything but sin. That is illogical. Man certainly does have a sinful nature but I can assure you that man has the power to do good works. Those good works may mean nothing (or "be as filthy rags") to God if they don't have the proper mentality underlying them, but they are still, on the surface, the same good works as those done by a true Christian believer with the proper mentality.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Can you back this up from scripture?

Not really. It's a conclusion at which I arrived. The Bible applies to everything but it cannot specifically evaluate every last little situation to which it applies, within 2,000 pages. Theoretically, the Bible would have to be of infinite length to cover down on everything in specificity. Therefore, we are left to make certain conclusions from what the Bible says.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Except that it glorifies him when we come to him in prayer. It also benefits us to submit to him. Again--if you can't back up what you're saying from scripture, then I have no reason to say you're correct. To the contrary, though, I know that scripture says God is omniscient (1 John 3:20)

My stance on prayer is that it starts out being more "for us" than "for God", and continues to be "for God". Prayer benefits me in that it focuses my mind on the things of God, and gets me thinking about God. In that way, it glorifies Him as well. When I pray to God, I'm not telling Him anything He doesn't already know. Therefore He doesn't benefit at all from what I say. Furthermore, He doesn't speak to me in response to what I say, so it's not exactly a two-way conversation. Given that, the "focus on the things and ways of God" is the largest benefit to prayer... UNLESS it is true that we possess the power to alter the will and plan of God through prayer. Again, that's another BIG discussion for another thread.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Why? It doesn't seem reasonable to assume that God does something against what scripture says. After all, scripture is inspired by him.

For this next question, I'm going to assume that you're married, or dating... or that you have at one point dated, such that you understand a dating relationship. Would you want to know everything your significant other was thinking, at every point in time? Why or why not?

Originally Posted by Vizio

You said above that God doesn't "NEED" anything. Why would he grow bored knowing what we think?

God might not grow bored knowing what we think but I'd bet He'd grow bored not being in true relationship with people. That is, after all, the reason why people were created.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Yet, the Bible CLEARLY says that we are predestined in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8. How do you reconcile your position with those passages?

Ephesians 1 - "We" means all of us. God predestined all of us to salvation in Jesus. The question becomes - who among us will accept and pursue that destiny? It's sort of like a marathon. There's a finish line. All participants can finish. But not all of them will. Some will choose to drop out and reject the victory of finishing.

Originally Posted by Vizio

God also wants all to be sinless. Yet, he allows for us to sin. Weird, huh?

Not weird when you consider God's purpose for humans - relationship... which requires choice. God feels better when people who CAN sin choose not to sin. Again, without choice, we're naught but robots.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually, if you want to examine the passage deeper, I can demonstrate to you that in context, he was saying "ALL" as in "all believers". It doesn't mean all of mankind that ever existed.

Well yeah... but what I meant was that Jesus' atonement for our sins is powerful enough to cover all people. Not all people will accept it, and therefore not all people will ultimately be covered by it, but in and of itself it lacks that limitation.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually, he said he loved Jacob and hated Esau. It's pretty clear. Read chapter 9 again.

I was quoting Genesis 25:23, not Romans 9.

Nowhere in Scripture does it state that God hated Esau prior to Esau's birth. It's therefore plenty logical that God's hatred was sparked by Esau's actions.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually, Ephesians 2:8-9 states that it isn't by works...but by FAITH ALONE that we are saved. Faith and works together might as well be works alone--because you're still dependent upon yourself to do the work. No matter how much faith you have.

James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

By faith alone we're saved, but if we don't have good works, that's evidence that we don't have saving faith. The two must be found together for each to have meaning and substance. One without the other is empty, meaningless, and insufficient for salvation.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually, he's saying he will have compassion on whoever he wants to have compassion on. That's what it says. All of us have earned hell--God just predestines some of us to be able to accept his gift of salvation.

A baby is born and dies ten days later. How has that person earned hell?

God will indeed have compassion on whomever He wishes to have compassion... and He wishes to have compassion on everyone who accepts His saving grace through Jesus Christ (otherwise it would not be true that He desires all to be saved). He has preordained the destiny of salvation to be available to all. It is only achieved by "all who believe", through those people's personal choices to believe. It is not achieved through predestination of individuals.

John 3:16, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, John 8:24, Romans 10:9, Luke 13:3, John 3:36, 2 Peter 1:10, etc.

Originally Posted by Vizio

That isn't the position of Calvinists, and it's not what predestination teaches. We have all earned hell for what we've done. God doesn't predestine anyone to damnation ---but he does predestine some to mercy.

Playing with this for a while - if God predestines some to mercy, what happens to the others? (If you say "damnation", then explain how it is that God did not predestine those "others" to damnation.)

Originally Posted by Vizio

That's an interesting story. But I'm not sure what it has to do with predestination.

It was a partial refutation of what people tend to say about Romans 9.

Originally Posted by Vizio

The Bible says he predestines.

He has pre-ordained certain destinations for man - one being salvation and one being damnation. This part of predestination, I believe. However, the Bible does not state for certain that God has predestined any individual to heaven or hell. Good thing, too, because that would directly contradict "God is love", "God desires all to be saved", the several verses I just referenced above, etc.

Originally Posted by Vizio

You're right. We are. Even the ones that are saved despite our sin. When God grants us the faith to believe, we do because we can realize it's the better thing. It's like offering my kid a bowl of ice cream, or a bowl of raw liver. I know which one she's going to choose.

True, and I do like that analogy... I've used "mouse guts" instead of "raw liver", but it's the same thing. Sure, God knows which of those two we'd choose, and His knowledge thereof would not preclude free will. However, what if your kid chose the raw liver? Would you feed it to her? (Or would you refuse, on the grounds that it won't be healthy to eat unless it is at least cooked first?)

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually, Calvinists also say that we must choose.

But they also say predestination of individuals. That precludes choice. Say, if I'm predestined to hell but I choose God, my choice is irrelevant. I'm still going to hell by their theology.

Originally Posted by Vizio

The Bible does show a clear winner. In fact it states explicitly that God predestines.

But not for individuals' destiny. He has merely created the two ends and given us the choice of which we prefer.

Originally Posted by Vizio

I don't know who God has predestined. I will preach his Gospel and let God sort it out. The ones that do repent and trust--great! The ones that don't? They will face judgment.

Playing with this for a while... if you believe in predestination, why do you preach? What good will it do? You're either preaching to the future heavenly choir, people who are going to heaven by God's predestination regardless of what you (a measly human) do... or the future damned, people who are going to hell by God's predestination regardless of what you do. If you kept your mouth shut, the predestination would be the same. If you work yourself to the point where your voice is shot, your hands are blue, and you go gray 30 years early, in the name of trying to save the lost... what's the point, if you can effect no change in people's eternal destinies anyway? Even if you want to take the stance of "it's my job to introduce them to the Gospel, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to bring them to Christ"... still part of it is your job. Why waste the effort and energy if you can do absolutely nothing to change people's eternal destiny for the better because God has already predestined people?

Originally Posted by Vizio

God doesn't predestine some to eternal punishment. He lets them have the punishment they've earned.

But if you take the stance that people can do nothing of their own volition to come to God, they haven't earned anything... they've merely played the hand they were dealt. That's like telling a losing poker player, who lost because he constantly got crappy cards dealt to him, that it was 100% his fault. Any poker player will tell you that there is an element of "luck of the draw" in the game and therefore if you lose it's not 100% your fault.

Originally Posted by Vizio

For the same reason that God also desires that we all be sinless. But he allows us to sin.

Makes no sense. He'd predestine some to damnation for the same reason that He desires that we be sinless?

Originally Posted by Vizio

Because by "living it up", they affect me. I'd rather not face the problems created by people "living it up".

They don't always affect you, or me, or other good Christians by "living it up". Often they do, but usually they don't. Right now there are probably millions of people getting totally drunk, stoned, high, etc. in their homes. There are probably millions of people who, by the end of the night tonight, will have had sex with someone to whom they are not married. Police will probably arrest at least thousands of people tonight for committing crimes. Yet, the chances that any of this will directly affect you or me are infinitesimal. We'll wake up tomorrow morning, if we're not victims of the crime perpetrated by one of the thousands who will be arrested tonight, and our morning will be just the same as it would have been if none of the aforementioned people committed any of the aforementioned sins. Using the law of averages, yes, we get affected... but it takes huge numbers of people committing egregious sins regularly to have much affect on those of us who aren't actively sinning in that manner.

Originally Posted by AV8n

In the understanding of a Calvinist, it is possible for someone to be predestined to salvation and yet not choose it? What happens if one of the elect does not accept salvation through faith - will God save him anyway?

As Calvinists state, if one is predestined to salvation, that person will be brought to God by God and that grace will be irresistible. So, no, Calvinists believe that if you're predestined to salvation, you're going to be saved. The elect cannot reject the salvation through faith.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

I would start by saying that it looks as if as though your entire thesis begins with this faulty premise (in bold)

I respect your opinion but there's no way that man could have been created holy like God and corruptible at the same time. The two are irreconcilable. Can God be corrupted by Satan? If no, then man was not given the same level of holiness.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

If you carefully read the scriptures, it states that election is spoken regarding the believer not about unbeliever. Human reasoning then concludes:

• well if the believer is ... then unbeliever is too.

which that is unscriptural.

Not sure what you mean. I can rock with saying that all believers are elected to heaven. I do not agree with how those who believe were predestined to that belief. Free will prevents that. We were given free will for the one single purpose of "choosing this day whom we will serve". We will earn for ourselves the reward or punishment for our choices when we give an account of ourselves before the Lord (Romans 14:12).

Originally Posted by twin.spin

There are several flaws here:
1) People's fate are not changed because of "we" ... rather they are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If by this you are asserting that people's fates can be changed at all, then you are implicitly denying predestination. For the record, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

The reason we preach is because:

• Jesus commanded us to do so Matthew 28:18-20

Which makes perfect sense if in so doing we can help the lost become saved, and strengthen those who are already saved.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

No where does scripture teach that ... humanistic conclusions does.

I agree.

Originally Posted by expatCA

You start off with an assumption.

That man being in the image of God and "good" ("holy" is not used), in some way is incomplete IF man can sin. OF course if perfection allows free will or choice, the balance of your argument is of no value, since it applies after the sin and resultant imperfection.

Ah, but I never said that man was not created "perfect". In this case, "perfect" is defined as "exactly the way God intended". Man was certainly created exactly as God intended. However, that perfection in creation included corruptibility and free will... so that man would have the choice of whether or not to follow God... and also a seemingly attractive alternative. It means more to God that we choose Him when there are other attractive alternatives. It's essentially about "do the right thing anyway".

[RomaniGypsy]

Ah, Mike... good to see you again. It's been a while.

Originally Posted by Mike555

RomaniGypsy, here are some of your stated beliefs in your post.

1.) That man was not created holy.

Sure not as holy as God, at least.

Originally Posted by Mike555

2.) You believe that God chooses not to know everything.

It's possible and logical. There's no way to know this for sure.

Originally Posted by Mike555

3.) You don't believe in Election.

At least not in the predestination sense of individuals. I believe that all who choose to believe are elected to salvation, not the other way around (that all who are elected to salvation choose to believe).

Originally Posted by Mike555

4.) You don't believe in Predestination.

Not of individuals for their eternal destiny, no.

Originally Posted by Mike555

However, your beliefs are not supported by Scripture.

There is an extraneous "not" in there. Were my beliefs not supported by Scripture, as a Christian man, I could not logically hold those beliefs.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Concerning #1. Your belief that man was not created holy is in error. Adam was created in a condition that was acceptable to God's perfect righteousness, and remained so until he chose to disobey God by violating the one prohibition that God had issued. That prohibition concerned eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The prohibition was given in order to provide Adam's volition with something with which to work. God gave Adam volition. The ability to choose. That required that Adam have the ability to choose to disobey God. God gave Adam volition because man's volition is the issue in resolving the spiritual conflict that began when the angel who became known as Satan used his volition to rebel against God. Though not his actual name, he is generally called Lucifer, so we'll go with that. Lucifer was created perfect as stated in Ezekiel 28:12,15. And yes, Ezekiel 28:12 and following is referring to Satan who was the power behind the throne of Tyre. While Ezekiel 28:1-10 is directly addressing the human ruler of Tyre, beginning with verse 12 Lucifer is addressed. The given descriptions could not apply to any man. Lucifer had been created perfect, blameless in his ways from the day he was created.

But corruptible as well. Perhaps not corrupted in the beginning, but still corruptible. That was obviously God's perfect intent. Makes sense, too. After all, good and evil must coexist for each to have meaning. One without the other is as neutral as touching one post of a fully charged car battery. Though it possesses enough energy to kill you many times over, if you touch one post without touching the other, nothing happens.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Just as Lucifer who had been created perfect used his volition to sin, so also, Adam who had been created perfect and acceptable to God used his volition to sin against God.

The fact that they could use that volition to sin against God means that they were not created to God's level of holiness. If God cannot sin but man and angels can, then man and angels never were as holy as God.

Originally Posted by Mike555

But God, knowing that Adam would fall, had already in eternity past decreed the means of salvation in which the Second Person of the trinity would come into the world as a man and go to the Cross to pay the judicial penalty for man's sins. When man, who is lower than the angels, and who is confined to the earth, but who has the same volition as the angels who have access to heaven and to the presence of God, uses his volition to respond to God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ, it demonstrates that the angels who rebelled against God are without excuse. God had always known that both the angels and man would fall, which leads to your next comment that you believe that God chooses not to know everything.

"Eternity past"?! That's a bit metaphysical, don't you think? Suddenly we're dealing with multiple eternities?

I'm with you, though, that God always knew that man and angels would fall. That was the point. Only through such could God establish the means by which He could engage in meaningful relationships with other salient beings.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Concerning #2.) You believe that God chooses not to know everything. This also is in error. Either God knows everything or He doesn't. It is clearly stated in Scripture that God is perfect in Knowledge (Job 37:16; Psalm 139:1-6; Heb. 4:13). There is nothing that is hidden from His sight. Since God knows everything, there is nothing that He can choose not to know. It is a contradiction in terms.

If you stand out in the open but my back is turned toward you, you are not hidden but yet I cannot see you. If you scream at me from two feet away but my ears are perfectly blocked in some way, you are not hidden but yet I cannot hear you. One must not be hidden in order to be imperceptible.

Perhaps God's perfection in knowledge includes the choice not to know everything at all times. Think about it like a box full of all possible knowledge. God may choose to leave some of that knowledge in the box for reasons known only to Him. That'd still be perfect.

And if God is omnipotent, then there is nothing outside of the scope of His power - including selectively choosing things not to know.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Concerning #3 and #4) You don't believe in predestination. Election and predestination are actually two sides of the same coin and are both spoken of in Scripture as being true. Let's start with predestination. You assume that predestination refers to God sovereignly deciding to save some to eternal life while deciding to leave others in condemnation irrespective of human volition. But this is not the case. Rather predestination refers to that which those who have of their own volition responded to the gospel by relying on Christ for their eternal salvation are predestined. Romans 8:29 tells us what believers are predestined to, and that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge.

Rom. 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.

"Those whom He foreknew" could be everyone. Take Psalm 139:1, for example. "O Lord, you have searched me and you know me." That applies to everyone. God foreknew everyone. He knew the type of person we would each become before we were conceived... just as I know what delicious waffles will come out of my waffle maker even before I pour in the batter that starts out looking like vomit and not smelling all that great either.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Based on His foreknowledge of those who would of their own volition respond to the gospel call in which the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8-11), God predestined the same to be conformed to the image of His Son. The ultimate fulfillment of this will occur when the believer is bodily resurrected which is still future. But everyone who believes on Christ already possesses eternal life in that he has been saved or delivered from the penalty of sin and has been credited with God's own perfect righteousness by which he is eternally secure.

This still doesn't explain in a logical sense, or an irrefutable Scriptural sense, how predestination MUST apply to each person's individual destiny independently of that person's volition. If God foreknew who would choose Him, then I'd have to ask - when? Before He created those people, even? Now we have a problem. If God knew that a person would not choose Him before that person was conceived, then God intentionally created that person to go to hell. (Logically, were I a loving Creator, and I knew that something I was about to create would fail me and end up in eternal torment as a result, I wouldn't create it. To do so is not loving... it is vengeful, spiteful, sadistic, etc.)

Originally Posted by Mike555

Ephesians 1:5 says that we are predestined to adoption as sons. When we place our faith in Christ Jesus we are adopted as sons into the family of God (John 1:12; Gal. 3:26).

Ephesians 1:11 relates the believer's predestination to his inheritance.

"We" = all of us.

Originally Posted by Mike555

You made reference to God hating Esau and loving Jacob. This is mentioned in Malachi 1:2-3 and quoted by Paul in Romans 9:13.

Malachi 1:2 ''I have loved you,'' says the LORD. But you say, ''How have you loved us?'' ''Was not Esau Jacob's brother?'' declares the LORD. ''Yet I have loved Jacob; 3] but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.''

This is related to God's election of Israel. God was simply referring to His sovereign choice that the nation Israel would come through Jacob rather than Esau.

The whole nation, eh? Then what about the other Old Testament times when Israel fell into apostasy and hundreds of thousands were killed? Many OT books are full of stories about Israel's cycles of apostasy and enlightenment. First they sin, then many are killed, then they realize that they messed up, seek God's forgiveness, and God has mercy on them... then they eventually sin again, etc. What happened to the Israelites who were killed at those times because of those sins? By your logic, they went to heaven because the Israelites were collectively chosen as a nation.

By my logic, Israel has been given special blessing and consideration by God. Frankly, I think this is evident even today. Israel is essentially a small strip of desert land, surrounded by countries full of people who totally hate Israel's guts. Yet, Israel has not only survived, it has whipped every country that took it on in battle. Ostensibly, Israel has all of the cards stacked against it. Most nations in the world refuse to support Israel, and even the mighty USA is wavering in its support of Israel. Yet, Israel remains, and is the only relatively sane democracy in the entire Middle East. If that isn't evidence of a blessing from the Lord, I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Both election and predestination are based on God's prior knowledge of the facts. God both elected and predestined to certain things those who of their own volition respond to God's call through the gospel message.

I hope that you can be objective and recognize that election and predestination are clearly taught in the Bible. But if, in view of Scripture, you still disagree, then understand that Scripture does not agree with you.

"God's prior knowledge of the facts" - Please reconcile this with God's reason for creating man.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Vizio

There is no discrepancy. The ones that believe will hold firm to the end. The ones that don't? They never were. 1 John 2:19.

It only says that because your theory demands it ... and for no other reason.

It's obvious the "I" and "P" of Calvinism is force feeding of theory of scriptures like 1 John 2:19 when in 1 John 2:24-27 says:

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you.
If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to
teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not
counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

The true focus of 1 John 2:19 are those false teachers who claim to come from "one of us" but are the "antichrists" ... which today they are known more by by the modern term cults.

[Priscilla Martin]

John Calvin's the Institutes of the Christian Religion was first published in 1536. The text below is a segment from the chapter on predestination. This doctrine, which was also held by Luther, became one of the distinctive marks of Calvinism.

THE covenant of life not being equally preached to all, and among those to whom it is preached not always finding the same reception, this diversity discovers the wonderful depth of the Divine judgment. Nor is it to be doubted that this variety also follows, subject to the decision of God's eternal election. If it be evidently the result of the Divine will, that salvation is freely offered to some, and others are prevented from attaining it---this immediately gives rise to important and difficult questions, which are incapable of any other explication, than by the establishment of pious minds in what ought to be received concerning election and predestination---a question, in the opinion of many, full of perplexity; for they consider nothing more unreasonable, than that, of the common mass of mankind, some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. But how unreasonably they perplex themselves will afterwards appear from the sequel of our discourse. Besides, the very obscurity which excites such dread, not only displays the utility of this doctrine, but shows it to be productive of the most delightful benefit. We shall never be clearly convinced as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from the fountain of God's free mercy, till we are acquainted with His eternal election, which illustrates the grace of God by this comparison, that He adopts not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what He refuses to others. Ignorance of this principle evidently detracts from the Divine glory, and diminishes real humility. But according to Paul, what is so necessary to be known, never can be known, unless God, without any regard to works, chooses those whom He has decreed. "At this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise, work is no more work." If we need to be recalled to the origin of election, to prove that we obtain salvation from no other source than the mere goodness of God, they who desire to extinguish this principle, do all they can to obscure what ought to be magnificently and loudly celebrated, and to pluck up humility by the roots.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Yes--we are born sinners. We are at war with God. We do evil in God's eyes. Our hearts are wicked and evil.

But it doesn't say that God can't change our hearts. After all, God moves the heart of the King wherever he wishes (Prov 21:1).



We can agree to disagree. I won't call you a heretic for thinking it's incorrect.

Not really. No one is good, and we all do evil -- until God changes our hearts and grants us the faith to believe. We can be good for a time--but we will all stray from the path without true faith and true sanctification through the work of God. If we stray from it, it means that we have never truly been regenerated and we never truly had faith.

There is no discrepancy. The ones that believe will hold firm to the end. The ones that don't? They never were. 1 John 2:19.

Again...those verses do not say that we can be "in Christ" as a true believer and then stray. It just means that a real believer WILL remain with him.

John wrote that they "went out from among us"...meaning that they were "among us". They apparently had every appearance of a real believer. But they weren't---because if they were a true believer they would have stayed.

I'm still waiting to hear what a true believer is,what is the appearance that shows they are and how much rope does God give the true believer on the sin scale?, before other true believers decide nah...... They were never of us in the first place?.

[RomaniGypsy]

Originally Posted by pcamps

I'm still waiting to hear what a true believer is,what is the appearance that shows they are and how much rope does God give the true believer on the sin scale?, before other true believers decide nah...... They were never of us in the first place?.

Multiple times does the Bible say "you will know a tree by its fruit"... we can start with Luke 6:44. Someone whose life is characterized by sin is obviously not a believer. It gets tough to determine who is a true believer when considering people whose lives are generally considered "good" by other believers of all stripes, but I think that we can come pretty close in our guesses. Only God knows for sure who is a true believer and who isn't.

[PaintMePurple]

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

Multiple times does the Bible say "you will know a tree by its fruit"... we can start with Luke 6:44. Someone whose life is characterized by sin is obviously not a believer. It gets tough to determine who is a true believer when considering people whose lives are generally considered "good" by other believers of all stripes, but I think that we can come pretty close in our guesses. Only God knows for sure who is a true believer and who isn't.

No, not only God knows, the Word is clear as to who God's people are.


Who are the elect? Identify.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

Multiple times does the Bible say "you will know a tree by its fruit"... we can start with Luke 6:44. Someone whose life is characterized by sin is obviously not a believer. It gets tough to determine who is a true believer when considering people whose lives are generally considered "good" by other believers of all stripes, but I think that we can come pretty close in our guesses. Only God knows for sure who is a true believer and who isn't.

Sounds to me then that we should refrain from judgement and simply judge ourselves.

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

You see here,James is showing us what we really should be looking at, knowing that what's got our attention becomes us(looking unto Jesus). Now if when we look into that mirror of perfect law that gives freedom instead of trying to see our reflection in the murky waters of sin, we will see ourselves as God see us and inevitably be what we are seeing in that mirror. To me the answer from the scriptures to be Christ like, is to be habitually looking into the mirror of the perfect law that gives freedom, and to quit looking at our short comings and failures, which when all said and done like Paul said it is not I working sin, but sin dwelling in me, and when he took his eyes off sin and onto the victorious one, he rapturously said in his new found freedom, "there is now, no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus, and only when we understand this the way Paul did are we truly in Christ Jesus experience wise.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

the " I P " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural

I=irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect.

Scripture teaches:

Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right." verifies that scripture teaches that people do in fact resist grace.

Psalm 21:16
" A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead"

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Your quotes come from the OT which was a period of time not under grace but under law, the NT begins the period of Grace...

[PaintMePurple]

None of you are qualified to discuss the Elect until you identify the Elect.

Who is the Elect?