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The people that are resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire have a body.
The ones in hell have no physical body. But they have feelings. The absence from God`s presence is already torment. To confront darkness can be fearful, once my hair stood up. But in the name of Jesus Christ is victory.
So if they have feellings can they have resentment and disgust and anger? If so, wouldn't you call those things a sin if they are directed towards God? Now if they are sinning in Hell, then your belief system has Jesus Christ failing to eradicate sin everywhere.
You want to to drive me into the corner, I know your tactic. I asked already the same questions and got no answer. Why God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and why He allowed Adam to sin? Why all the trouble we have here on earth? You have no answers in your notebooks?
In the Millennium God gives proof that in spite of the reign and goodness of God men`s heart is evil and chooses darkness over light. It is their own choice, they willingly rebell against the Lord. You must understand it is not easy for a human being to submit to a higher authority. We are born rebells with the DNA, nature of a fallen Adam. Therefore we need a change into a better DNA, the natur of Christ.
I see that you work on this forum as an army, well equipped, even the JW could learn from you. my respect for Finn, that preached the truth
Dear Zur,
I am a bit surprised by your response. It was never my intention to drive you into a corner.
I am not in cahoots with anyone else here on this forum. Sure, I might agree with *some* of the things others write here.
God did not plant the tree in the garden to see what Adam and Eve would do. The Bible says He declares the end from the beginning.
God did not put the serpent in the garden to see what the serpent would choose to do.
God did not give Adam a help mate to see what she would do.
Do you think God was ignorant of this prior to creating the first couple?:
"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God" (Rom 8:6-8).
God purposely made Adam and Eve of flesh knowing full well that its disposition is death and that the flesh is enmity to God and is not subject to God's law and in fact it is not able. God created Adam and Eve flesh with the disposition of the flesh being at enmity to God.
God laid down the law in Eden knowing full well in advance that Adam and Eve could not and would not be able to keep it.
He planted the tree smack dab in the middle of the garden so every day they couldn't miss it.
He put the serpent (He created the serpent craftier than all the animals) in that garden to further His purpose in snookering Eve.
Therefore the deck was stacked against Adam and Eve from the get go. Why would God do such a thing? So that He could bring the Saviour to save them from their sins. They have to learn from good and evil. But they must experience the evil first to contrast that with the good in what the Saviour will give them: incorruption and immortality.
If eternal torment is true then God did a most diabolical thing in creating all mankind flesh. But if God is ***eventually*** going to save all mankind due to what Christ accomplished for all mankind (Romans 5:18,19) then all God is doing is for good.
So if they have feellings can they have resentment and disgust and anger? If so, wouldn't you call those things a sin if they are directed towards God? Now if they are sinning in Hell, then your belief system has Jesus Christ failing to eradicate sin everywhere.
Sin and death entered this world. Hell is another world. It is not physical. Nobody can sin there, sin is a matter of here on earth.
You do better to life in this world now than to figure out the world to come. Spiritual things have to be discerned spiritual.
Sin and death is eradicated after the Millennium, than we have a new Heaven and earth, the lake of fire is the destruction not only of hell and death, but also of the sinners, Satan and his fallen angels, they are gone, they have nothing to do with the coming world.
Sin and death entered this world. Hell is another world. It is not physical. Nobody can sin there, sin is a matter of here on earth.
You do better to life in this world now than to figure out the world to come. Spiritual things have to be discerned spiritual.
Sin and death is eradicated after the Millennium, than we have a new Heaven and earth, the lake of fire is the destruction not only of hell and death, but also of the sinners, Satan and his fallen angels, they are gone, they have nothing to do with the coming world.
So do you believe in eternal torment for the wicked?
(copy/paste one of my older posts) Asfor figuring out who the "last which shall be first" and the "first which shall be last" are. You keep trying to guess or jump to conclusions that the Bible doesn't confirm. "Oh the thief on the cross is last", "the widow is first etc."Luke 13:25-30 lays it out clear. The KJV puts Jesus's words in red:
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. Luke 13:23-31
There's is no distinction of rich/poor, married/widow, etc. in this passage. No other questions were asked in between verses 24-30. Jesus describes two groups of people: those inside the kingdom, and those weeping outside, that's it. He then concludes his speech by putting each group in a category: "the last which shall be first" and the "first which shall be last". You want to have it both ways by applying both categories of people to one group; It doesn't work like that. Few are saved now, not in general.
I also mentioned Romans 5:14-15, 18-20. That also shows that you don't have to be saved in this life only to eventually be saved since the second Adam came to justify those that the first Adam condemned; and not everyone is justified in this life. Unless you believe that the sin of Adam much more abounds over Jesus blood and that Adam's sin condemns more that Jesus blood saves.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:47-48. Verse 47 says that Jesus came not to judge the world, but to save the world; even those who believe not. But in verse 48, Jesus says that they will in fact be Judged. It's not that verse 47 & 48 contradict one another, but that Judgment brings about a righteous purpose and obedience in people.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Revelation 15:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah. Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us. God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him. Psalms 67:4-7
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord. Isaiah 26:9
You can show favor (verse 10) to the wicked and they will not learn righteousness. They will not turn from their wickedness and behold the majesty of the Lord. But when God judges the earth (verse 9) that's when they'll learn righteousness.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:4
^These are the purpose of God's judgments, not locking them in a torture chamber so they can curse and blaspheme his name forever and disgrace his holiness forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
You are quoting verses from the Millennium. That is the reign of Christ. But you forget the end, when many of this people run with the Devil and will be destroyed by fire and you forget also the wicked that will burn when Jesus comes to reign on earth. Yes Jesus will destroy sin in us now or God will destroy the sinner with unquestionable fire. Every one can choose so long he lives, afterwards it is too late. I would not choose your option, it can lead to the lake of fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
Yes He will in the Millennium, when every rebellion comes to an end. The test is made at the end, who will stand for Christ and who will follow Satan. The same test is now, whom you want to serve, that is the issue.
The timeline of Matthew 25:31-46 is taking place at the start of Christ's reign. When Jesus comes from Heaven to earth with his angles and sits on his earthly throne:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:31-32
We can also tell that the passage is taking place at the start of Christ's reign because verse 34 says:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
The righteous are given life at the start of Christ's reign, not after the 1000 years:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
How can the wicked be cast into "everlasting fire" at the start of Christ's reign (matt 25:41-46), if people are returning to Christ sometime during Christ's reign?
All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s, And He rules over the nations. Psalms 22:27-28
The verse says they "remember" him. That's a reference to the wicked since they are the ones who forgot God: ...sick and in prison and you did not visit Me Matt. 25:43. And yet they are remembering and returning to Christ during his reign despite being cast off at the start into "everlasting fire". That should tip you off that the fire isn't actually physical and that "everlasting" isn't a proper translation.
Second, those verses show that the purpose of God's judgments are to correct those who need correcting. God's correcting the wicked by his Judgments so they can return and worship him, Psalms 22:27-28, 66:3-4. You even said that during his reign "every rebellion comes to an end". Oh really? You believe that Jesus's judgments toward the wicked pull a 180 at the end of the 1000 years and he tortures them forever? All judgments were given to Jesus John 5:22, and Jesus never changes Hebrews 13:8.
"But you forget the end, when many of this people run with the Devil and will be destroyed by fire"
But YOU forget that All judgments were given to Jesus John 5:22, and Jesus never changes Hebrews 13:8. They were cast into fire at the start of his reign, and the very same thing will happen at the end of the 1000 years; that the wicked will eventually be redeemed by his unchangeable judgments. That is when every rebellion will "come to an end".
Third, you believe that condemnation is an eternal, irreversible state of being when the Bible says otherwise since many who are condemned already (John 3:18) give their life to Christ every day, and that Jesus was condemned to death (Mark 10:33) yet he rose 3 days later (verse 34).
Last edited by Sir. Noel; 12-31-2013 at 09:56 AM..
Dear Zur,
I am a bit surprised by your response. It was never my intention to drive you into a corner.
I am not in cahoots with anyone else here on this forum. Sure, I might agree with *some* of the things others write here.
God did not plant the tree in the garden to see what Adam and Eve would do. The Bible says He declares the end from the beginning.
God did not put the serpent in the garden to see what the serpent would choose to do.
God did not give Adam a help mate to see what she would do.
Do you think God was ignorant of this prior to creating the first couple?:
"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God" (Rom 8:6-8).
God purposely made Adam and Eve of flesh knowing full well that its disposition is death and that the flesh is enmity to God and is not subject to God's law and in fact it is not able. God created Adam and Eve flesh with the disposition of the flesh being at enmity to God.
God laid down the law in Eden knowing full well in advance that Adam and Eve could not and would not be able to keep it.
He planted the tree smack dab in the middle of the garden so every day they couldn't miss it.
He put the serpent (He created the serpent craftier than all the animals) in that garden to further His purpose in snookering Eve.
Therefore the deck was stacked against Adam and Eve from the get go. Why would God do such a thing? So that He could bring the Saviour to save them from their sins. They have to learn from good and evil. But they must experience the evil first to contrast that with the good in what the Saviour will give them: incorruption and immortality.
If eternal torment is true then God did a most diabolical thing in creating all mankind flesh. But if God is ***eventually*** going to save all mankind due to what Christ accomplished for all mankind (Romans 5:18,19) then all God is doing is for good.
OK Eusebius, I do not know you so well, I thought you are of the same group, because they asked me the same questions and I asked them also questions, you now answered.
I agree with you, God knew very well, that they would fall and He did it by purpose.
But I believe that Adam and Eve were created very good, their was no sin in their life and they would live forever. They did not have the sin nature nor was any enmity of God in them.
That all changed, when they ate of the tree of good and evil and eating from the tree of life they would be in that state for eternity, therefore they were driven out of Paradise.
I agree also that the Savior was in Gods plan from the foundation of this world. But I see the plan of God and of mankind in a different way. It has to do with the rebellion of Satan and his defeat through an obedient human race that were submissive to God, were Lucifer failed.
I think the plan of God to proof to Satan that people stay on Gods side (Job), despite his intervention, includes also that the humans that rebel against God get the same judgement as Satan does. But they that are in Christ will replace Satan and his fallen angels. There is a third group that will go into the Millennium, after that comes the final judgement. God is not the origin of evil. He did not create Adam and Eve as we are now. Lucifer's rebellion is the first sin and this caused sin and death come into existence and entered than into God`s creation through Adam`s rebellion.
The timeline of Matthew 25:31-46 is taking place at the start of Christ's reign. When Jesus comes from Heaven to earth with his angles and sits on his earthly throne:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:31-32
We can also tell that the passage is taking place at the start of Christ's reign because verse 34 says:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
The righteous are given life at the start of Christ's reign, not after the 1000 years:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
How can the wicked be cast into "everlasting fire" at the start of Christ's reign (matt 25:41-46), if people are returning to Christ sometime during Christ's reign?
All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s, And He rules over the nations. Psalms 22:27-28
The verse says they "remember" him. That's a reference to the wicked since they are the ones who forgot God: ...sick and in prison and you did not visit Me Matt. 25:43. And yet they are remembering and returning to Christ during his reign despite being cast off at the start into "everlasting fire". That should tip you off that the fire isn't actually physical and that "everlasting" isn't a proper translation.
Second, those verses show that the purpose of God's judgments are to correct those who need correcting. God's correcting the wicked by his Judgments so they can return and worship him, Psalms 22:27-28, 66:3-4. You even said that during his reign "every rebellion comes to an end". Oh really? You believe that Jesus's judgments toward the wicked pull a 180 at the end of the 1000 years and he tortures them forever? All judgments were given to Jesus John 5:22, and Jesus never changes Hebrews 13:8.
"But you forget the end, when many of this people run with the Devil and will be destroyed by fire"
But YOU forget that All judgments were given to Jesus John 5:22, and Jesus never changes Hebrews 13:8. They were cast into fire at the start of his reign, and the very same thing will happen at the end of the 1000 years; that the wicked will eventually be redeemed by his unchangeable judgments. That is when every rebellion will "come to an end".
Third, you believe that condemnation is an eternal, irreversible state of being when the Bible says otherwise since many who are condemned already (John 3:18) give their life to Christ every day, and that Jesus was condemned to death (Mark 10:33) yet he rose 3 days later (verse 34).
It is already said in this thread that the wicked will be destroyed and not purified as you say, you are again out of scripture. It is one of your arguing to repeat yourself again and again. I answered you already. No need to do it again.
What hell is concerned, I just remember a witness, a believer, who Jesus showed hell. There was a Pastor in hell and Jesus said he is there because he preached that there is no hell. My last warning, do not play with fire.
It is already said in this thread that the wicked will be destroyed and not purified as you say, you are again out of scripture. It is one of your arguing to repeat yourself again and again. I answered you already. No need to do it again.
What hell is concerned, I just remember a witness, a believer, who Jesus showed hell. There was a Pastor in hell and Jesus said he is there because he preached that there is no hell. My last warning, do not play with fire.
It's obvious that you can't accept what the Bible says: That the purpose of Jesus's judgments are to correct those that need correcting, and that his judgments never change; That the wicked who are on earth when Christ returns are cast into fire at the start of his reign but return to him during his reign. You're the one who is out of scripture. That's why you failed to provide scripture to my last post. And don't put visions over what the Bible says. Not all visions come from God.
also i've only been repeating myself on the Luke 13 passage, since that what's this topic was originally about. My last two posts have been about other scripture based on the underlined points. If you can't show me in the Bible where Jesus changes then there is no need to believe otherwise.
Last edited by Sir. Noel; 12-31-2013 at 11:49 AM..
OK Eusebius, I do not know you so well, I thought you are of the same group, because they asked me the same questions and I asked them also questions, you now answered.
I agree with you, God knew very well, that they would fall and He did it by purpose.
But I believe that Adam and Eve were created very good, their was no sin in their life and they would live forever. They did not have the sin nature nor was any enmity of God in them.
That all changed, when they ate of the tree of good and evil and eating from the tree of life they would be in that state for eternity, therefore they were driven out of Paradise.
It is nice we agree on some things. You might want to save some of these things for future reference and study them out:
God said: "lest they eat of the tree of life and live for the eon." They did not have immortality prior to their eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If they had immortality, why even the need for the tree of life?
The only one so far who has immortality is Christ. We will follow Him in getting this.
As it turns out they almost lived for the duration of that eon for shortly after he died that eon ended by the flood of Noah's day.
Quote:
I agree also that the Savior was in Gods plan from the foundation of this world. But I see the plan of God and of mankind in a different way. It has to do with the rebellion of Satan and his defeat through an obedient human race that were submissive to God, were Lucifer failed.
Where do you get Satan rebelled prior to Adam and Eve coming on the scene?
Quote:
I think the plan of God to proof to Satan that people stay on Gods side (Job), despite his intervention, includes also that the humans that rebel against God get the same judgement as Satan does. But they that are in Christ will replace Satan and his fallen angels. There is a third group that will go into the Millennium, after that comes the final judgement. God is not the origin of evil.
Isa_45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
Quote:
He did not create Adam and Eve as we are now. Lucifer's rebellion is the first sin and this caused sin and death come into existence and entered than into God`s creation through Adam`s rebellion.
The word "Lucifer" is a bad translation. Everywhere else the Hebrew word is translated it is translated as "howl."
Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!"
It's obvious that you can't accept what the Bible says: That the purpose of Jesus's judgments are to correct those that need correcting, and that his judgments never change; That the wicked who are on earth when Christ returns are cast into fire at the start of his reign but return to him during his reign. You're the one who is out of scripture. That's why you failed to provide scripture to my last post. And don't put visions over what the Bible says. Not all visions come from God.
Where is this explicitly stated in Scripture?
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