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Mike, I can't possibly waste your time, w/o you allowing me to. It is your choice to make not mine.
In no way have I ridiculed the Bible or tried to discredit it. In fact, I believe the Bible is the Word of God, but not for the same reasons you or all else on this thread does.
I appreciate all the responses, and want to make clear that to those that love the Lord, I do not doubt it in the least. I don't have a problem with that. I just have a problem with how all of us are so separated in our belief.
Db0809 - God has never dammed anyone to Hell. The only people in Hell are those that knowingly turn their backs on God and choose to be unrepentant, thus freely choosing to go to Hell. As far as answering our prayers, like any good father, sometimes his answer is "no!" Also, remember, Luke 23 - Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
When the cross is embraced it becomes a sign of love and of total self-giving. To carry it behind Christ means to be united with him in offering the greatest proof of love … the choice is between a full life and an empty existence, between truth and falsehood. Carry it with pride, because the true reward comes in the next life. No guarantee's for this one, my friend.
Rightly Divided - Mary Baker Eddy wrote a book in the 1800s called, 'Science & Health'. She claimed that it was inspired by God himself. --- The Book of Mormon, according to Joseph Smith (The Founder) was directed by an angel who revealed to him where he could find the writings, which were written in unidentified characters. The angel told him to translate it and bring it to light as the restoration of Christ's true Church. --- Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed from God to Mohammad through the Angel Gabriel.
How is it that the Holy Spirit reveals to you or your Elders, something far different than what God or an Angel had revealed to Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith or Mohammad?
In your last comment you mention that nearly all Christian faith's are the same but with different names. This is incorrect. All have different name's because they break away from each other. The name change is to signify their own independent identity. Luther broke from the Catholic Church, though he still believed in the Eucharist, and the veneration of Mary, among many other things. Zwingli & Calvin came along and rejected the Eucharist and the veneration of Mary. The list goes on & on!
Below is a long list of Reformers who were all different than the other in interpretation of scripture, thus belief. Of course there are many more today, so I vehemently disagree with you, and would be happy to discuss this further, if you like. List of Protestant Reformers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by Gabriel A. Pettinicchio; 03-22-2014 at 01:21 AM..
It came in the 1st century and has gotten progressively worse.
NIV 2 Corinthians 11:12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve
ASV 1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that would lead you astray.
ASV Revelation 2:20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
How could it have happened in the 1st Century, when the formulation of the New Testament didn't occur until the 4th Century? --- If the truth of Christ started to go wrong in the 1st Century, why do you believe it all came together accurately in the 4th?
I guess another way to phrase my question is: Why do you believe the Bible is Gods Word? Do you believe it because it says so?
No because the Church says so. It put the books together and decided what to include since it is what Christ taught and what to exclude because it was not what Christ taught.
Here and many others believe the Bible is the Word of God because we personally witnessed the promise of the Father God to send His Holy Spirit to the repentant people who are looking for Christ and then receive the very Holy Spirit in a profound way over our lives ..............WHICH is exactly what they did from the Book of Acts 2:2...when the day of Pentecost came God sent His Spirit on those believers some 1,983 years ago and is still sending Jesus Holy Spirit on believers today which gives the people who receive a personal witness of the very cross of Lord Jesus Christ which He died and was raised from the dead and then gave this promise to send His Holy Spirit to believers who were obedient to His authorship of salvation and commands ..................The people who do not try to seek and find Lord Jesus will never have this witness of truth of God .
How could it have happened in the 1st Century, when the formulation of the New Testament didn't occur until the 4th Century? --- If the truth of Christ started to go wrong in the 1st Century, why do you believe it all came together accurately in the 4th?
It didn't come together accurately in the 4th, as a church, it just got more weed filled and less accurate.
The Bible in part or total was known long before the 4th century. However lets accept for a moment that the "Church" had God's spirit to canonize the books that now make up the Bible. So what? The Israelite priesthood canonized the OT, which is how we got the Septuagint (LXX), in the 3rd century BC that Jesus and the Apostles sued along with the Hebrew text. Obviously they did not continue to have God's spirit, as we see in the NT. So canonizing what God wants canonized does not mean the ones doing it were favored or guided by God in anything else. He just used them to do His will just as he used the Pagan Romans to destroy Jerusalem.
The seeds Jesus and the apostles planted and Christians have continued to plant, have been growing mixed in with weeds for 20 centuries. That is what Jesus foretold and we can see it today.
No because the Church says so. It put the books together and decided what to include since it is what Christ taught and what to exclude because it was not what Christ taught.
Bingo!!! It was the Church. All other arguments against that are either un-founded, illogical, and by those not willing to look at historical truth and how it relates to Biblical Truth.
For anyone that believes the Prophesy theory, they must accept the fact that the Bible didn't fall from the sky. It came from the Church made up of red-blooded human beings/Bishops, that were given the Spirit of Truth.
The same questions about the Bible are raised over and over, yet, many respond to the answers like my 4-5-year old grandchildren: "Why? .... Why? .... Why? .... Why?" - Below, from another recent post is the information you seem to be honestly seeking:
1). Over 60-percent of the Bible was originally written as future prophecy which has indisputably been accurately fulfilled - No other self-professed ‘holy book’ dares even remotely attempt or claim the Bible's use of prophecy.
2). The Bible is represented by more consistently accurate ancient manuscripts than any other literary work known to mankind? (10,000 manuscripts vs 600 for Illiad & Odyssey)
3). That the Bible has supernaturally survived large scale repeated attempts by nations and societies to banish and destroy it (most recently the Nazi's); yet is still the most widely read and followed teaching known to mankind.
4). The documented and widely accepted life-changing power of Bible teachings and precepts have influenced billions over thousands of years and billions today.
5). Bible standards and laws have been adopted by every civilized nation throughout history
6). Archaeological finds inevitably and consistently support Bible truth and teachings, in spite of contrary worldly opinions of its detractors
7). The convergence of thought and principals are consistent throughout the Bible ... even though it was penned by more than 100 authors over a 1500-year period of time (no computers or high tech communications).
8). The Bible alone claims over 3000 times to be the definitive, inspired Word of God. This claim is neither made or supported by any other self-professed ‘holy book.’
9). The fact that the Bible is still a light and guide to the paths of billions today, as it has been over thousands of years; it remains the most widely accepted standard of truth today.
10). The Savior of mankind, Jesus Christ, was consistently revealed in OT scripture and fulfilled over 300 Messianic prophecies. Modern computers have calculated the odds against one man fulfilling 8-10 of the major prophecies to be about 30 x 10th power to 1.
11). The Bible's inspiration and principals have been upheld by Presidents, Scientists in all disciplines, Historians, Archaeologists and every other intellectual discipline accepted by the world
12). Even its most vitriolic detractors still tend to acknowledge and support its foundational principles and often the very Words and teachings of Jesus Christ.
Claims that "Bible supporters only rely on the 'circular' teachings of the Bible itself as evidence of its truth and inspiration" ... are little more than the desperate flailing of those in darkness, who are fighting against the light. Claims that only Christ and the parts of the Bible represented as His recorded Word … are true and accurate, but, that the rest of the Bible (from the same sources and writers) are untrue and inaccurate …. selectively use and renounce the same standard, and as such, invalidate themselves!
In 30-years as a Bible Teacher/Preacher, I've never found anything that contradicts the Truth of the Bible as God's inspired Word. Invariably, those who claim otherwise, tend to isolate passages and verses; pitting those against the entire body of work, as their sole evidence that the Bible is not God's inspired Word of Truth (... and the Words spoken by Jesus against which all men will ultimately be judged).
Too many people come onto this forum simply to ridicule the Bible and to discredit it, and aren't actually interested in answers to the questions that they ask. With that in mind I told you that if you fall into that category, to not waste my time.
You asked, ''By what authority do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?'' My answer in post #12 was, ''For one thing, the fulfilled prophecies recorded in the Bible which can be historically verified as having been fulfilled.'' I then gave some specific prophecies which can be checked historically.
Your reply in post #14, totally ignored what I said about checking HISTORY to see if certain prophecies which can be verified as having been fulfilled, were in fact fulfilled. Instead, you implied that I was using the Bible to prove the Bible and therefore using circular reasoning. That raised a red flag regarding your motives. Using history to verify whether prophecy was fulfilled is not using the Bible to prove the Bible and is not circular reasoning.
You ask how those prophesies got into the Bible, and who knew enough to put them there, and who possessed that truth? I told you. The answer is God. Only God can make such exacting prophecies. God is the divine author of the Bible and used human writers to record His word in writing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel A. Pettinicchio
Mike, I can't possibly waste your time, w/o you allowing me to. It is your choice to make not mine.
In no way have I ridiculed the Bible or tried to discredit it. In fact, I believe the Bible is the Word of God, but not for the same reasons you or all else on this thread does.
I appreciate all the responses, and want to make clear that to those that love the Lord, I do not doubt it in the least. I don't have a problem with that. I just have a problem with how all of us are so separated in our belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel A. Pettinicchio
Bingo!!! It was the Church. All other arguments against that are either un-founded, illogical, and by those not willing to look at historical truth and how it relates to Biblical Truth.
For anyone that believes the Prophesy theory, they must accept the fact that the Bible didn't fall from the sky. It came from the Church made up of red-blooded human beings/Bishops, that were given the Spirit of Truth.
You claim that you believe that the Bible is the word of God but seem not to believe that the historically verifiable fulfilled prophecies of the Bible with regard to the ones which have already been fulfilled are proof that the Bible is God's word. You call it a theory and say that those who believe 'the prophecy theory' must accept the fact that the Bible did not fall from the sky which indicates that you ignored the fact that I specifically stated that God used human writers to communicate His word.
If you believe the Bible is the word of God as you claim you do, then believe this.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21]for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
As for the church, the church did not and could not give divine authority to any Book of the Bible. The church could only recognize which Books already had divine authority by virtue of being God-breathed.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is inspired (theopneustos; God-breathed) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
God is the divine author of the Bible. All Scripture is God-breathed meaning that it originates with God. A clear example of this fact is the Book of Revelation which is the result of Jesus giving the Revelation to John who recorded it.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2] who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
No because the Church says so. It put the books together and decided what to include since it is what Christ taught and what to exclude because it was not what Christ taught.
How many times do I have to go through this? The RCC DID NOT decide and put together the books of the Bible. Puuleez, buy or download a book that accurately traces the development of the Bible. Your lack of Scripture knowledge is surpassed by your unknowing view of its origin.
JN 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
And this is the cure for sin: JN 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world."
For when you see Him you shall become like Him and only then will the Word of God begin to make sense to you.
The Word of God is a "mystery hidden within a mystery" and only Christ has the keys to give so as to understand spiritual things because He is the author of the Bible. The natural mind can not know the mystery of Christ because you must be "born again" of the Spirit.
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