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Yes, I posted links to changes in the Book of Mormon. The book of Mormon has been changed since the 1830 edition. That is a fact. SergeantL said that the changes were to correct grammar and spelling errors. I felt this ignored changes that were more significant than that, so I posted a link to two sites, one anti-Mormon and one pro-Mormon, that discussed the changes that could have doctrinal implications. I even said I understood the argument made by the Mormon apologists as to why those changes were not significant.
My information is not mistaken. I just disagree with Mormons about what the information means. And that's fine. I wasn't disregarding Sergeant's posts, I just didn't have any more to say. I said my piece. He said his.
Yes, we all know how much you disagree with the mormons faith, so why not discuss what you believe on a thread about you're own faith? If you left the faith you're saying you don't agree with the beliefs, so then how can you of all people explain what we believe? The lds faith doesn't need you to defend it or attempt to teach it. If you have a question about what we believe, people who know the faith can answer it. But you still have no place trying to teach it. Something is always amiss when you nitpick about what we believe. You leave so much out and it changes the whole meaning. Also, you of all people had the nerve to ask me to represent what you said honestly. But how could you, someone who left the church, ever represent what we believe honestly? Is what I'm saying that outrageous? Do we have any Methodists or Catholics on the board? Do you feel that I, a person who has only been to your church probably once in my whole life and read maybe a few articles is the right person to discuss, in detail to others, what Methodists or Catholics believe? Sure, I could make generalizations, but since the Catholics and Methodists actually live it, I'm going to go to them and take their word for what they believe, not someone else. For example, my aunt is muslim. I read a verse in the Koran about women being subject to their husbands. I know a little more about the religion because of what I've read and saw how she lived, but I'm not the person who could tell you what muslims really believe because I don't live it day to day. Besides, there are even different types of Islam. So, I'll bet muslims would be irritated if I spoke on the board like an expert.
Last edited by annibelle; 01-13-2008 at 04:23 PM..
Reason: additions
Momtofour you did, in past pages on this board, give links to changes in the Book of Mormon. SergantL spent a lot of time explaining why those links, quotes and they're disregared. I think people like him have been very patient in explaining and correcting your mistaken info, but you just keep on. Like I've said before, I know what mormons really believe because I live it, I go to the conferences, I read and study it everyday, I attend church so Im able to answer questions. Seems like you and others just want to go tit for tat. Look how long you've been discussing changes in the Book of Mormon. So what it has changes. Big deal. Doesn't the new testament have changes to the old testament? Didn't the jews of Jesus' time have a really major problem with Jesus and the changes he tried to teach them? Jesus tried to teach the Jews that they didn't need to make literal sacraficies of animals in the temple anymore and just like folks today they wanted to go tit for tat with him on what was in the old testament. So since, the new testament has changes from what the old testament required, are you not going to believe the bible now? No. Because you realize that would be taking things out of context.
Justifying changes in the BoM by admitting you don't understand the New Covenant's relation to the Old Covenant probably isn't a good idea. I'm not sure what you're 'reading and studying everyday', but you might want to ask some questions about this point you've used here.
Justifying changes in the BoM by admitting you don't understand the New Covenant's relation to the Old Covenant probably isn't a good idea. I'm not sure what you're 'reading and studying everyday', but you might want to ask some questions about this point you've used here.
The point is that when Jesus came, he tried to explain to the Jews at that time they no longer needed to do certain things, in a nutshell, he spoke about changes. Jesus also said things like how the old testament spoke about "an eye for an eye" but Jesus said love one another. He spoke about change, like not stoning women too. I used that example because when Jesus spoke about changes, people got really upset with him. They, the Jews at that time, felt like there should be absolutely no changes and by changing anything in the old testament it meant that Jesus false. Too many people spent time debating and arguing with Jesus on small points, and each time He tried to help folks see the big picture. But they never got it. They wanted to go tit for tat with Him. I apoligize if I did not do a good very explaining myself. I'm not as good at it like others are.
MomtoFour and Urbanlemur are pretty fairhanded. I don't sense a lot of bitterness with them. There are others who show incredible intolerance, however. They are usually the ones who bring up the tanners and the like.
Annibelle and Coolcats: That would be me--one of the "others." The question remains--were the Tanners correct? None of the Mormons here have THEMSELVES sought to investigate what the Tanners actually said. We are accused of not understanding Mormonism, yet many Mormons do not understand Mormonism. Instead of checking out thoroughly for themselves the accusations against Mormonism, many run to their wards for clarification.
Have you personally checked out the Tanners' allegations or do you run to one of your church leaders and listen to what they say?
There are nearly 4,000 changes to the BOM--a book that was supposed to be perfect. There are blatantly plagiarized portions from the book of Isaiah written in the King James English and portions in which passages of the NT are found. If you have read the BOM, you have come across these passages.
Furthermore (and I know I will again be misunderstood but so be it), this thread is not an attack on Mormonism but rather a defense of Christianity. If you choose to see it as the former, there is nothing we can do about that.
This is not an attack upon any Mormon personally--only on its doctrines.
It is Mormonism that has come along and called itself Christian. Yes, there are differences among the various Christian denominations and a case could be made that some have drifted so far away that they should relinquish that title. I have made my accusations against them as well. But the topic here is Mormonism.
The Jesus of Christianity has and always will be GOD of very GOD. On that most denominations agree, and ultimately that is the fundamental truth that binds us together despite our other differences. Some baptize infants; others do not. Some believe in eternal security; others do not. Some believe in miraculous gifts; others do not. Some of these differences are serious and should be addressed. But they are still matters of disagreement among those who believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh--the eternal Son of the Eternal Father.
When Mormonism then comes along and claims to be Christian, the Christian community has every right to question that claim. When Mormonism comes along and distorts the Scriptures (i.e. John 1:1) and makes of Jesus something He is not, Christianity has every right and every obligation to defend Him. When Mormonisim teaches that our God was once a man and that men can become as God, we have every right and every obligation to condemn such an unbiblical and heretical teaching.
NOONE is questioning your right to be who you are. But Mormonism cannot come along and distort the Bible, make Jesus someone other than the One Whom the Bible declares Him to be, and reduce the awesome, majestic, and unique character of our God by claiming He was once a man, and not expect to be confronted for it!
When we say of Joseph Smith that he was a scam artist and a liar, Mormonism gets defensive and accuses the accusers of maligning their Prophet. Why, then, do Mormons find it strange when we seek to defend the character of our Prophet, Priest, and King?
If you have the wrong Jesus, then you have the wrong salvation. And if you have the wrong salvation, you are yet in your sins and headed for condemnation. For me, it is as much a desire to defend Jesus from the errors of Mormonism as it is a desire to see individual Mormons find the true Jesus. Merely winning an argument for the sake of winning an argument is pointless if it does not lead to the revelation of the truth that leads to the winning of lost souls.
I have been accused of being nasty and hateful and intolerant. But just as you defend your sacred writings, I must defend mine.
I ask you:
How did Jesus come into being?
Was he procreated by a father and mother God just as we all are?
Was God the Father once a man?
How did Mary conceive Jesus?
Can a man attain to Godhood?
Is there a mother God?
Are we all related to one another because we all come from the same God "with whom we have to do?"
Are we all, then, spirit-brothers and sisters of Christ?
Clearly, there are certain basic truths to which we must adhere in order to rightfully call ourselves Christians. If a group advocates teachings outside of that realm, it should not claim its name and seek allegiance. That is not hateful, spiteful, nasty, or intolerant. It is a logical and justified defense of purity of doctrine. Such a defense is necessary against not just Mormonism but against any who would come in and attempt to distort the teachings of the Scripture concerning the person and work of our Lord and Savior.
You cannot say that with methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. I do not know if the Mormon church is like the Christian church but if it is then there is no way to say Mormons believe any specific thing.
In Christian churches, people believe in lots of different things. Some accept official tenants of the church some do not. Some Presbyterians believe in predestiny, some do not. Some branches of the church hold this to be important, others do not. Some Baptists believe that anyone not baptized their way will go to hell, some do not hold this belief. A portion of the Lutheran church believes that women cannot preach or teach. Another portion does not hold this belief. Can you say the Lutherans believe one way or the other?
The Catholics are very different in what they believe. The Pope wrote that those of us in protestant churches are heretics and damned to hell. Go ask a few catholic friends or even a priest if they believe that to be true. I know some will tell you that it is not true. A few will even venture as far as to say that the pope is wrong.
If you put ten people of the same denomination in one room and asked them a series of theological questions, you would get at least 6 or 7 different answers to many of the questions. This is true even of ministers, bishops etc. A good example is to ask their position on homosexuals. you will find a lot of Christians who believe that Jesus god and the Holy spirit as all part of a whole, but do not believe in the trinity concept. (i.e. they believe that they are connected yet separate and that their is a hierarchy between them.). Look at these boards, people are still fighting over whether you are saved though grace/faith, or by works, or by a combination. Which do Christians believe? Which Christians? (of course some people will say that "only people who think like me and believe what I believe are truly Christians, everyone else is an impostor" I will not comment on that position at this time.).
So can we really ask/say that Mormons all believe the same thing? I knew a Mormon some time ago and she told me that they believe that Jesus is God. Is she a corrupted Mormon, or do different Mormons believe different things? Do different branches of the Mormon church have different beliefs just like different branches of the various denominations for the Christian churches?
Preterist,
One of the major difficulties in witnessing to Mormons is that they speak a unique language. Not only have they coined numerous words and expressions unique to Mormonism, but they have also given unique definitions to commonly used words and expressions. Some have called the language "Mormonese".
It [a dictionary] was compiled by theologian(s) who hold Dr. of Divinity, one that requires 8 yrs to get. It was obtained by the very means that pro-mormons keep on crying about -- go to the scorce! So that was what was done; BoM, Ensign, D&C and D&C student manual, Old Testament Manual I, Doctrines of the Gospel, Book of Mormon student manual, Gospel Princibles - "offical" church publications --- not mention @ 10 years of asking questions from those like sergeant, annibelle, coolcats, church leaders and so on to get how the words are being used conversationally.
If the Methodist Church started to call themselves "LDS" or "Mormon" and still preached the Methodist faith, do you not think Mormons would object? Then [in effect] have Methodists say, "If you're not one of us, or tote the party line, you're not qualified, have no right to believe your eyes or ears if it is used to come to any other conclusion other than conversion or agreement with us!... So therefore, you are attacking, hateful, unkind, unfair, rabid, I can debunk you in three seconds" comebacks. That unspoken arrogance would raise the eyebrows of any person.
The topic I focus on when I speak [in person] to Mormons is:
PERFECTION: The major emphasis of Mormonism. Becoming perfect is the key to becoming exalted. This emphasis places great stress on many Mormons. "Perhaps no idea creates more emotional stress for some of us than the idea that we need to be perfect right now--or soon!… And when we fail to achieve perfection in some area, we criticize ourselves harshly, even to the spirit of despair" (Ensign, Sept. 1990,p.50) or should I say National Inquire?
Mormons do speak a different language. Look at the dictionary that was published here. So do Christian churches.
I mentioned elsewhere that Christian churches often use terms that I cannot understand and when I look the words up, the definitions make no sense. Further Christian churches tend to abuse words and expand their meaning until the word no longer means anything, or better put it means so many different things that it no longer has specific meaning. "Grace" is a perfect example of this.
Lookingat the Mormon dictionary it appears that they are even worse about this than Christian Churches. I think that this is a mistake for any faith. If people cannot understand what you are saying, you will never get your message across.
Annibelle and Coolcats: That would be me--one of the "others." The question remains--were the Tanners correct? None of the Mormons here have THEMSELVES sought to investigate what the Tanners actually said. We are accused of not understanding Mormonism, yet many Mormons do not understand Mormonism.
Preterist, this is the last time I am going to respond to you, because I am tired of going over the same ground with you.
Every member I know is intimately familiar with the Tanners and their particular line of poison, half truths, distortions, exaggerations, and out and out lies. None of the Tanner's arguments hold water. Next, I know exactly what Mormonism is. I hold a graduate degree along with 35 years of investigative experience, so it is child’s play for me to research, compare, and draw appropriate conclusions. If you think you are smarter and more capable than I, then so be it, but I am not impressed with your arguments so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
There are nearly 4,000 changes to the BOM--a book that was supposed to be perfect. There are blatantly plagiarized portions from the book of Isaiah written in the King James English and portions in which passages of the NT are found. If you have read the BOM, you have come across these passages.
The Book of Mormon was and still is perfect in its message. You, take liberty by placing a single restrictive definition on the word perfect. If I misspelled God, would that make Him imperfect? Those who translated the Book of Mormon were imperfect. Every change in the Book of Mormon has not changed the message or meaning. They have been made to make reading easier. If you want to use the 4000 change argument, then you better throw out your Bible, because it has undergone the same kinds of changes since it was originally written. Tell me if the format in the Dead Sea Scrolls is the same as the modern day Bible. Tell me the Books of Moses in the Torah are the same format as the KJV of the Old Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
Furthermore (and I know I will again be misunderstood but so be it), this thread is not an attack on Mormonism but rather a defense of Christianity. If you choose to see it as the former, there is nothing we can do about that.
This is not an attack upon any Mormon personally--only on its doctrines.
If you really believed what you have written above, you wouldn’t even be posting here. You would create a thread listing why Christianity is true and defend your faith on its own merits, just as we Mormons do. Contrary to what has been posted on this board by some, I have never seen an LDS missionary attack the doctrines of another faith. I hear these stories, and I am sure those who believe and pass them on have heard them from someone else, but we are NOT allowed to attack another faith when prosthelitizing. On the other hand, I see so-called Christians parading in front of the Salt Lake Temple everyday, screaming the Mormons are the Church of Devil. I see them shed crocodile tears telling us they love us and are trying to save us. Tell me Preterist, when was the last time you saw an LDS missionary in front of your particular place of worship prosthelitizing or attacking your faith? Actions speak louder than words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
The Jesus of Christianity has and always will be GOD of very GOD. On that most denominations agree, and ultimately that is the fundamental truth that binds us together despite our other differences. Some baptize infants; others do not. Some believe in eternal security; others do not. Some believe in miraculous gifts; others do not. Some of these differences are serious and should be addressed. But they are still matters of disagreement among those who believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh--the eternal Son of the Eternal Father.
Preterist, if you think a belief in the Trinity binds all mainstream Christians together and you are willing to live with all of the other doctrinal conflict that’s fine. As far as I am concerned, such a state is a house of disorder and confusion, and I am not inclined to believe God maintains a disorderly house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
NO ONE is questioning your right to be who you are. But Mormonism cannot come along and distort the Bible, make Jesus someone other than the One Whom the Bible declares Him to be, and reduce the awesome, majestic, and unique character of our God by claiming He was once a man, and not expect to be confronted for it!
The LDS have not distorted the Bible, who is to say mainstream Christians haven’t made Jesus into something He is not. Remember, Preterist, there were two factions at the Council of Nicea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
When we say of Joseph Smith that he was a scam artist and a liar, Mormonism gets defensive and accuses the accusers of maligning their Prophet. Why, then, do Mormons find it strange when we seek to defend the character of our Prophet, Priest, and King?
Preterist, if you can show me one place where the LDS have attacked the character of Jesus, I will immediately leave the LDS Church and join you. We disagree on the physical nature of the Godhead; we do not disagree on the character of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
If you have the wrong Jesus, then you have the wrong salvation. And if you have the wrong salvation, you are yet in your sins and headed for condemnation.
Show this to me in the Bible, Preterist. Show me specifically where God states we must believe in the correct Jesus. It is a body of men who have defined the modern Trinity, which is not of God.
(Preterist:None of the Mormons here have THEMSELVES sought to investigate what the Tanners actually said.)
Why do I need to investigate what a non mormon is saying about my beliefs? I already know what I believe. What I don't like is people like you coming on the board and trying to tell me what I believe. You can't teach about my church because you don't understand it. You deliberately twist different quotes to mean something they don't.
(Preterist):Instead of checking out thoroughly for themselves the accusations against Mormonism, many run to their wards for clarification.
I searched world religions for 2 years and then lds doctrine another 1. 5 years before joining. During that time I heard a lot of what mormons believe from folks like you. After researching the doctrine for myself for 1.5 and using my own mind to make my own decisions instead of only going by what folks like you say, I could clearly see that people like you were either straight out lying or didn't understand what you were reading. If I want to learn more about my religion, why would I go to another church? Senseless.
(Preterist):There are nearly 4,000 changes to the BOM--a book that was supposed to be perfect.
In the old testament, it says to sacrifice animals in the temple. In the new testament, Christ said because of His sacrifice, we don't need to do that anymore. So, since you don't like changes, I guess you're still into sacrificing animals. Right? The jews in the new testament could not accept the changes Christ came to discuss with them. So, I guess you want to keep every single thing in the old testament the same right? I guess you have to dress, live, etc. exactly like the jews in the old testament.
(Preterist Furthermore (and I know I will again be misunderstood but so be it), this thread is not an attack on Mormonism but rather a defense of Christianity.
If you read the beginning of the thread, this is about what mormons believe. You wouldn't know cause you're not mormon. Just like I wouldn't know what Baptists believe because I'm not Baptist. Matter of fact, I don't care what Baptists believe because I already have the truth. I already researched what you believe BEFORE I joined the lds church. I'd never say what you believe is comepletely wrong, because I'm not rude, but I will say that what you believe didn't fullfill me spiritually, so I continued looking until I found a faith that did.
(Preterist I have been accused of being nasty and hateful and intolerant. But just as you defend your sacred writings, I must defend mine.
If you've forgotten what you've written, just go back and look at the first few pages of this thread. I'd never say such things about anyone's faith just because I don't agree with it. And if you can't discuss your faith (which absolutely no one is interested in nor have they asked you since this thread is about what mormons believe) without insulting what a person believes, then you should find a better way to discuss things. Its not very Christlike to tell me that I should just listen to you when I tell you I'm fullfilled by my faith. If a person is not looking for another church, why do you continue to tell us what you believe? No one asked. Go start a thread on what __________ (fill in the the blank) believe. You sound like you'd be pretty good expert about your own faith. But to come on a board and try to tell ANYONE what they believe is wrong is arrogant. I can only say what mormons believe.
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Furthermore (and I know I will again be misunderstood but so be it), this thread is not an attack on Mormonism but rather a defense of Christianity.