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That's it, isn't it! Do Mormons REALLY believe that? In today's complex world? What about people who outright CAN'T have kids? Are they "in a lesser state" than those who can?
I think some of the critcisms or suspicions occur because concepts / values / beliefs are handled in a manner so differently from other Christian religions.
Perhaps the single biggest complaint is that the LDS Church pays so much attention to the "tiers" occupied by its rank and file members, let alone those in its "management." It seems extremely stratified and elitist to me.
Please elaborate on and/or validate that those who procreate prolifically are more abundantly blessed according to the Mormon faith.
We know also that the children of God cannot be exalted as single individuals. Neither a man nor a woman can be exalted in the celestial kingdom unless both unite in the unselfishness of the everlasting covenant of marriage and unless both choose to keep the commandments and honor the covenants of that united state. Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles,Ensign, January 2001.
We know also that the children of God cannot be exalted as single individuals. Neither a man nor a woman can be exalted in the celestial kingdom unless both unite in the unselfishness of the everlasting covenant of marriage and unless both choose to keep the commandments and honor the covenants of that united state. Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles,Ensign, January 2001.
That's fine ... yes that's a quote from one of our current apostles. That's what we believe. It doesn't bother me, and I'm not sure why it bothers you. You may not think it's correct, but we don't think everything you believe is correct either.
But the fact is you found something that somehow offends your sense of Christianity and you are running with it as ammunition against us. It would make sense to me if you would just say to yourself, I don't believe that and I disagree with it, and leave it at that. But instead it becomes another anti-Mormon arrow in the quiver. Plus it leaves me wondering why you expend the energy to study our doctrine so intently. I try to be somewhat familiar with other beliefs, but I certainly don't spend what seems to be excessive energy and time on them.
As for actually taking the time to make some sort of hit list against your particular branch of Lutheranism, I have no desire. I don't have time, and frankly, I don't want to because I don't think it would keep with the teachings of Christ. I am not threatened by your denomination. Do you not see then, why it is so strange that so many people obsess about every word and doctrine of the LDS? People literally spend hours culling historical documents and current teachings trying to catch anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GENO-777
And how do you test the spirits?, You have to talk to them (and don't be afraid) Ask them if Jesus came in the flesh?
(Hiram's question)
I have a couple of questions for the Mormons.
What and (or) who are the spirits that you are asking?
Where in scripture does it say to perform the above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcats
Only God the Father.
From the Bible we read:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith,nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. James 1:5-6
Similarly in the Book of Mormon we read:
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Moroni 10:4-5.
To try and not get to confusing here we have to know my original question.
First of all, your Moroni vs 5 states our power is from the Holy Ghost (spirit). Well my friend, no one receives any kind of power until they are in Christ. So if you came to the house of an unsaved person and wanted to share with him something from the word of God, then scripture is what God intends for us to use. A Hari Krishna could do the same thing you are describing in your original statement. When you sit with your recipient and pray for feelings, it frees you from looking at scripture.
What you and Moroni have just said is another contradiction. We receive the Spirit once we make a decision to follow Christ, as in the example below.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The book of James, chapter 1:5-6 is talking about faith and standing fast or not wavering. It is not explaining about speaking to God in a casual conversation as you suggest. This passage is explaining about prayer, standing fast, having faith, not wavering, gives to all men liberally, without disapproval. This passage is talking about prayer, and men asking for wisdom.
Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily [to find out] whether these things were so.
There are few examples in scripture where anyone has spoken to God directly.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
The Mormon Church say they have Apostals. What does God say?
The Apostles Foundational Role
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. [/Ephesians 2:19-22
Here we see the church compared to a building.
Jesus himself is the chief cornerstone. The apostles and prophets make up the rest of the foundation. This analogy helps us to see the foundational role of the apostles.
When building a building, the first thing that is laid is the foundation. Everything else is then built upon that one foundation. Do we then go back after building a couple of stories and lay the foundation again? No. It is only done once. The foundation is laid one time in the beginning and then never again.
The same is true of the apostles. They served as a foundation for the emerging church. We should not expect to see another group of apostles later on any more than we would expect someone building a building to lay another foundation on the fourth floor. After all, Jesus Christ, being the chief cornerstone, is a part of this foundation as well. We certainly do not expect there to be another Jesus Christ, do we?
Apostles were to bear witness to the fact that Jesus had risen from the dead. In order to do this, they had to have seen him after he was resurrected.
And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day… And ye are witnesses of these things. Luke 24:46-48
When looking for someone to replace Judas, the one chosen had to be a witness unto the resurrection.
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Acts 1:22
Jesus told the apostles:
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8
And that is exactly what they did.
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33
Paul the apostle, in defending his apostleship, appealed to the fact that he had seen Jesus after he had risen from the dead.
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 1Corinthians 9:1
After that, he [JESUS] was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me [PAUL] also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:7-9
This LAST passage is devastating for those who believe that there are apostles today. In order to be an apostle one has to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. Paul says that Jesus was seen last of all by him. He is the last one to see Jesus after his resurrection. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle. Therefore, there can be no apostles today.
Jesus gave the apostles the ability to perform miraculous signs..
And when he [JESUS] had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these... Matthew 10:1-2
...for in nothing am I [PAUL] behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 2 Corinthians 12:11-12
Paul refers to his ability to perform miracles as "the signs of an apostle".
And they [The Apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Mark 16:20
This miracle-working power was given to the apostles to bear witness that they were God’s messengers and that they were speaking the very words of God.
Many people operate under the false assumption that all Christians in the early church were working miracles. This is simply not true.
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Acts 2:43
[U]And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people[/U]... Acts 5:12
If every believer had this power, why did Jesus need to give it to the apostles? They would have had it already. There is not one miracle performed in the new testament by anyone other than Jesus, the apostles, or those who were directly chosen by Jesus or the apostles.
Those who claim to be apostles today may claim to have this kind of miracle-working power but there is little (no) evidence of it.
Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. And a certain man lame from his mothers womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; Acts 3:1-2
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God: Acts 3:6-9
Compare this to the so-called miracles that we see today. Our would-be apostles supposedly heal people of things like: earaches, back pain, high blood pressure, and other such things that cannot be seen or verified.
This man was lame from his birth. He had never walked. Not only did he have bone problems, he would have had muscle problems as well. Have you ever seen the legs of a person who has been in a wheel chair for a long time? They have no muscles in them. The muscles in their legs would have to be regenerated before they could walk.
In the Bible days, when people wore robes, the change in this man’s calves would have been seen immediately. Jesus healed a man with a withered hand. His hand would have been recreated. Again, this would have been obvious to all who were watching. Jesus and the apostles raised the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus after he had been dead for days. His body was severely decomposed and even stank. These kinds of miracles could not be questioned.
Why don’t we see people performing these types of miracles today? Because those who claim to have miracle-working power don’t actually have it.
The Bible says this concerning the high priest and other religious leaders of the Jews:
And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. Acts 4:14-16
It is easy to deny the works of the so-called apostles today. They are often heard about second hand, and the tale seems to grow with the telling. There are researchers, many of them medical doctors, who have tried to verify these so-called miracles. What they find without exception is exaggerations, deception and even outright fraud. They find absolutely no evidence that any true miracle has actually taken place.
Compare that with miracles of the true apostles. Their miracles were performed out in the open for all to see. No one could deny them or speak a word against them.
Don’t get me wrong. I believe that God still heals and performs miracles today in answer to our prayers. What I’m saying, however, is that there are no "Apostles" today. There is "healing" but there are no longer any "healers".
The Bible tells us that there were not only "true" apostles but that there were also "false" apostles.The following passage sends a stern warning of the dire consequences that await those who claim to be apostles but aren’t.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
Jesus commends the Ephesians for being able to spot these false apostles.
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Revelation 2:2
It’s easy to spot false apostles today. Since there are no true apostles today, anyone who claims to be an apostle is a false apostle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GENO-777
And how do you test the spirits?, You have to talk to them (and don't be afraid) Ask them if Jesus came in the flesh?
(Hiram's question)
I have a couple of questions for the Mormons.
What and (or) who are the spirits that you are asking?
Where in scripture does it say to perform the above?
To try and not get to confusing here we have to know my original question.
First of all, your Moroni vs 5 states our power is from the Holy Ghost (spirit). Well my friend, no one receives any kind of power until they are in Christ. So if you came to the house of an unsaved person and wanted to share with him something from the word of God, then scripture is what God intends for us to use. A Hari Krishna could do the same thing you are describing in your original statement. When you sit with your recipient and pray for feelings, it frees you from looking at scripture.
What you and Moroni have just said is another contradiction. We receive the Spirit once we make a decision to follow Christ, as in the example below.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The book of James, chapter 1:5-6 is talking about faith and standing fast or not wavering. It is not explaining about speaking to God in a casual conversation as you suggest. This passage is explaining about prayer, standing fast, having faith, not wavering, gives to all men liberally, without disapproval. This passage is talking about prayer, and men asking for wisdom.
Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily [to find out] whether these things were so.
There are few examples in scripture where anyone has spoken to God directly.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Are you a prophet?
If you are asking me if I'm a prophet, No I'm not, All I was saying is if some one wants to test if some one is from Jesus Christ, you ask them if Jesus came in the flesh, I don't put heavy burdens on any one that might want to come to Christ, for fear i might chase them away.
We know also that the children of God cannot be exalted as single individuals. Neither a man nor a woman can be exalted in the celestial kingdom unless both unite in the unselfishness of the everlasting covenant of marriage and unless both choose to keep the commandments and honor the covenants of that united state. Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles,Ensign, January 2001.
I get it now. And some posting below acknowledges that this is in fact an LDS belief. Unbelievable. This is tantamount to saying that a minority is a lesser being. I can't believe I'm reading this, but my suspicions are confirmed. Let me ask you, do you have single friends or divorced friends who are just as holy and decent as married folks you know? No other religion has such an issue with marital status. Now I see why I didn't get a job offer.
Am I seeing this right? Or are any LDS people out there willing to rebut/clarify this?
You are engaging in a sort of intellectual inbreeding. Feeding off of each others' inflammatory statements and smugly coming to next outrageous conclusion about what Mormons believe.
First, let me tell you what my initial experiences have been based on knowing Mormons on the street we lived on and in the workforce. The initial vibe was that they were conventional and decent people. As a kid, they seemed absolutely normal, outgoing and well-adjusted. They were also well-mannered.
Then, about 10 years later, I see that they have this programmed track of sorts, which includes marriage at an early age and procreation...a lot of it. That's all good and fine....but when you OVERLAY that very belief, imposing it on someone of another faith and judge them for this within YOUR frame of reference, that is incredibly insulting and demeaning in my mind.
So, rather than avoid my question, please answer my question directly as to whether married people are held in higher regard in your church than unmarried, childless people. I believe that is the case. Since I've dealt with this smirk not only in hiring, but in social settings that involved LDS people, my opinion changed. It was based on FIRST-HAND experience. I can think for myself. It was MY OWN observations that changed my opinions of what was indifference as a teen-ager.
As for my own faith, Catholicism, there are things I am ashamed of and apologetic for. However, I believe in the concept of having only an Old Testament and a New Testament. The problem I have is with some "management issues" in the Catholic Church. I think the current spate of scandals, perpetrated by few and hurting many others that are there to serve, is one of the church's biggest black eyes since the Inquisition. I think the celibate status of the clergy is less than optimal, especially since some apostles were supposedly married. And there are a few other issues that grate on me. However, I wouldn't be any happier as an Anglican or a Methodist or a Baptist.
But, you know what, I like how EGALITARIAN my Church is. One fundamental belief is that, for example, the poor uneducated never-married mom who is a janitor in one of the rougher neighborhoods of NY or Chicago, and can't tithe, is evaluated as to whether or not she is a good person. The same criteria holds true for a church member who is an executive or a doctor and can tithe 15% of their income, if they chose to. (We have no standards on this). Either person can come in to any Cathedral at any time the doors are open and worship. A Muslim or a Jew can walk in to our churches and visit, attend a baptism or attend a wedding.* It is that EQUITY in the eyes of the Lord that keeps me in the flock.
*I learned when I was in SLC laying over for a plane change that I could NOT go into the city's temple. Wow...just wow!
Back on track, please answer my question as to whether married / single status gets differential treatment / esteem according to your church's teachings?
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