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I am sorry that I am so tardy in my responses. I am fairly consumed with work, family, community, and church activities!
We completely understand the demands of family, work, community and church activities...well maybe not work. We do however, appreciate the time you take to respond our posts; I do appreciate it.
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I have introduced the 9th article of faith which states that we (LDS) believe in modern day revelation. Birdy and I have conducted most of this conversation, which has centered around Joseph Smith's inspired version of the Bible (which by the way is not the official LDS Bible). Birdy has objected to any one changing the text of Holy writ, saying that it is like changing Pi--which as you know can't be done.
Correct. It is impossible to change a principle of the Divine One. Zillions of digits of Pi, all arranged in an order that cannot be re-arranged, not one of them, nor can one single digit be removed . Ah, our God is beyond, beyond!
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The Pi analogy in my opinion does not hold weight. Unlike a number, language is imprecise and nuanced and can change meaning over time. The language of the scriptures is imprecise because our language and our understanding is imperfect. I would like to make a few points regarding the prophets.
The English language is the most extensive in volume and scope. And, as you have correctly pointed out, language changes from generation to generation. The Koine Greek actually has words which cannot be translated adequately because there is nothing that is synonomous, even in English, or any other language....The apostle Paul is one of those who uses over 20 compounds, which as diligent as they are as translators, cannot be expressed fully in English, such as "all the more."
The issue, which I continue to proclaim: Joseph Smith has seen fit to remove, or add words to the inspired text of the apostles, in the case in point, to the apostle writing to the Hebrews, adding "not" to "leaving", thus changing the direction by 180 degrees. This is simply not acceptable under any circumstance. Not!
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The Lord has always called prophets in every age--that is His modus operandi, as it were.
Paul says that the church is built upon the foundation of prophets, and the Lord would continue to call prophets and others for the work of the ministry until we are all in the unity of the faith.
For the most part, the world rejects the prophets. Even the kings of Israel spent most of their time trying to kill the prophets. The children of Israel rejected the greatest of all, even the Lord Himself.
Dead prophets always appeal to people more than living prophets--who are very inconvenient.
The scriptures are the works of past prophets but are often misinterpreted. The Jews loved the scriptures and studied them incessantly, but when the word of prophecy was fulfilled before their very eyes they rejected it because of false traditions, the philosophy of men, false pastors, and misinterpretation of the word of God. They clung to the law of Moses and refused to listen to anything else.
I must go but there is so much more I must say. Alas it must be later.
My friend, I also believe in the foundation of the prophets, and apostles of our Lord, encompassing the five fold ministry, for the perfecting of the saints, till we all come to the fulness of the stature of Christ and a perfect man.
By the way, Birdy, I liked the quote you gave. It is very close to Mormon doctrine--for which we have been criticized on this very thread, I might add.
"Every response to light means fuller understanding and enlarged capacity for further revelation. The true Christian life is a growth, which finds no maturity in this world; the ultimate is never reached in this land of shadows. There is no exhausting of the light and glory and beauty of Christ, and if He has not startled and shamed me recently it is because somewhere in the past I disobeyed and have lost my power to see. Sanctification is progressive, the Spirit of God patiently leading us from point to point in life of faith and light and love, and forevermore astonishing us with new unveilings of the glory of our Master. -G. Campbell Morgan- "
I therefore rebuke you Hiram. We have the truth and you don't (should I thumb my nose at you too?)
Oops, I just met your criteria for those who have the truth. Dang, we have to start over because we both claim to have the truth. No wonder this thread has more than 890 posts.
I haven't thumbed my nose at anyone. If you are going to rebuke me and show me the truth then you should use scripture, which I am finding out very quickly, Mormon's cannot do. Even Satan in his rebuke to Christ used scripture!
Matthew 4-3-7 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In [their] hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' " Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' "
...or did you just want me to "talk to God", till a feeling came over me or a voice inside me said it is so! Pentecostals also do this. Should I believe them?
coolcats, please go back to page 84 and my posts on apostles and please give me something to go on that I should believe that there are apostles in the Mormon Church! I am open for rebuke!
Please, do not ask me to talk to God for there are many spirits out there and we have to test the spirit to see if it is from God or not. To do this we use the "Holy Spirit" which is the word of God. 2 Cor 11:14
1 Peter 3:15, "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you."
GENO-777 Still looking forward to your answer on temples. Maybe you and coolcats could answer this one for me. It is a parable. What does "Then last of all" mean. Maybe it should read "Then second last of all."
Matthew 21:33-45 " Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "So they took him and cast [him] out of the vineyard and killed [him.] "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease [his] vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. "And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. Matt 13:13-16
I haven't thumbed my nose at anyone. If you are going to rebuke me and show me the truth then you should use scripture, which I am finding out very quickly, Mormon's cannot do. Even Satan in his rebuke to Christ used scripture!
Matthew 4-3-7 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In [their] hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' " Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' "
...or did you just want me to "talk to God", till a feeling came over me or a voice inside me said it is so! Pentecostals also do this. Should I believe them?
coolcats, please go back to page 84 and my posts on apostles and please give me something to go on that I should believe that there are apostles in the Mormon Church! I am open for rebuke!
Please, do not ask me to talk to God for there are many spirits out there and we have to test the spirit to see if it is from God or not. To do this we use the "Holy Spirit" which is the word of God. 2 Cor 11:14
1 Peter 3:15, "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you."
From some people here, I can sense a more gentle approach that really is grounded in love toward others, even if I disagree with them. From you, I only sense a desire for contention, using selective interpretation of the scriptures to your advantage. Which contention, we scripturally read, is not of Christ, but of the Devil.
From our Doctrine and Covenants And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them. D&C Section 10:63
From the Book of Mormon For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. 3rd Nephi 11:29
Ah ... but you say you don't accept the above as scripture. Well I do. But just in case, From the New Testmament, on how we should approach Christ:
Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. Philippians 1:15-17
As for the role of apostles. Nowhere does it say that we cannot have apostles today. In the New Testament, Judas was replaced by Mathias. So there is precedence that apostles would be replaced. Why and when would this precedence be disrupted, if it was clearly allowable after Christ died? In 1 Corinthians 12, we read about the various roles people may have in Christ's Church.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
This is written in the present tense. It is clear that there is some role for apostles, while others of us will have other roles in the body of Christ.
In Ephesians 4, we read about apostles again.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Again this is in present tense, and it says these positions will exist until we all come to a unity of faith. Is there such a unity today? Certainly not.
In the Book of Mormon it is prophesied that many will fight against the Apostles.
35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious abuilding, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 1 Nephi 11:34-36
Again, this is not time specific, so it could and probably does, apply to our day. I would not want to be one who fights against the Apostles of Jesus.
Coolcats has given an exellent response. I hope you listen to what he has to say.
The scriptures are not meant to be an instrument of contention or a weapon to bludgeon those who do not believe like we do. That is probably why you think that we are not willing to quote scripture.
In response to your question about temples. Why do we serve in the temple? Because we have been commanded of God to do so.
The Lord through His prophet Joseph Smith commanded the people to build a house of God:
119 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God; (D & C 88:119)
The book of Revelations also indicates that the faithful will serve God in His temple:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (Rev 7:13-15)
The all-seeing eye was well-known Satanist Aleister Crowley's favorite symbol. It is found on the face of the one dollar bill, Masonic Lodge furniture, and over the highest window of the east central tower of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah. Known as the "Eye of Horus" or "Utchat Eye" 1, it is associated with both the Egyptian God Horus (god of war) and his father Osiris (who along with Isis comprise the Egyptian Triad). Albert Pike, Masonic Grand Commander admitted, "...the All-seeing eye,...to the Egyptian initiates was the emblem of Osiris, the Creator." 2
Called the "mal ochio" (evil eye), this object is regarded by all Satanists as the symbol of Lucifer. 3
Joseph Smith was a 33 degree mason, as many LDS leaders are today.
The all-seeing eye was well-known Satanist Aleister Crowley's favorite symbol. It is found on the face of the one dollar bill, Masonic Lodge furniture, and over the highest window of the east central tower of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah. Known as the "Eye of Horus" or "Utchat Eye" 1, it is associated with both the Egyptian God Horus (god of war) and his father Osiris (who along with Isis comprise the Egyptian Triad). Albert Pike, Masonic Grand Commander admitted, "...the All-seeing eye,...to the Egyptian initiates was the emblem of Osiris, the Creator." 2
Called the "mal ochio" (evil eye), this object is regarded by all Satanists as the symbol of Lucifer. 3
Joseph Smith was a 33 degree mason, as many LDS leaders are today.
Hiram ... we answer one provocative question after another from you. You then move on to some other hateful and inflamatory contention. I feel sorry for you.
The all-seeing eye was well-known Satanist Aleister Crowley's favorite symbol. It is found on the face of the one dollar bill, Masonic Lodge furniture, and over the highest window of the east central tower of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah. Known as the "Eye of Horus" or "Utchat Eye" 1, it is associated with both the Egyptian God Horus (god of war) and his father Osiris (who along with Isis comprise the Egyptian Triad). Albert Pike, Masonic Grand Commander admitted, "...the All-seeing eye,...to the Egyptian initiates was the emblem of Osiris, the Creator." 2
Called the "mal ochio" (evil eye), this object is regarded by all Satanists as the symbol of Lucifer. 3
Joseph Smith was a 33 degree mason, as many LDS leaders are today.
That is pretty good Hiram. You must have been itching to use that on us once you baited us to answer your question. It made me smile and brightened my mood, which wasn't your intention, I'm sure, but thanks anyway.
About the symbols on the outside of the Salt Lake Temple:
"Original plans for the temple called for elaborately sculpted stones on the exterior, in the early tradition of architectural ornamentation and symbolism. However, the final finishing was simplified to representations of suns, moons, stars, clouds, clasped hands, and the “all-seeing eye.” The cloud stones, adorned with realistic clouds and rays of light breaking through them, symbolize the light of the restored gospel breaking through the clouds of darkness. Clasped hands appear above the doorways and symbolize brotherhood in the gospel and a link between heaven and earth. The “all-seeing eye” also appears above the doorways and reminds us that our daily activities should be done in righteousness under the watchful gaze of the Lord."
Richard G. Oman, “Sculpting an LDS Tradition,” Ensign, Oct 1990, 38 (emphasis added)
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We do however, appreciate the time you take to respond our posts; I do appreciate it. 
Please use Scripture!
