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Agree with a lot of what you've said above. I'm going to have to disagree with you though regarding what coolcats is saying regarding salvation. I was thinking more along the lines that she was stating that she didn't know the future, as oppossed to stating that she wasn't certain in Christ's ability to bring her 100% to salvation.
There's a certain degree of faith in which one has to have regarding salvation, and not entirely knowing the future. I must say I do have to agree with her regarding some of the stuff that's preached in Protestant Churches nowadays. I don't want to get into semantics or anything, but I have seen some preachers state "You're saved" more than "By God's grace you'll be saved" in a lot of the denominations. I think this type of attitude can lead many down the wrong path as well, and to have a sense of complacency by just going to church and not really growing in Love of God and others.
I totally agree with the last sentence. I believe we can all be saved after we've done all we can. If someone robbed me and gave me lip service about being sorry, that wouldn't be enough for me. But if after robbing me, he was sincere about it, made reparations and did all he could do with his means to do better, that's different.
Thanks. I wouldn’t expect us to agree completely on all the doctrines, or else there wouldn’t be a need for missionary work from both perspectives. But there is undoubtedly some commonality, that is too often overlooked I believe.
Well, I don't really agree with Mormon doctrine as a whole. But at the same time I have seen many people of the Mormon faith who do have a passion to follow the Gospel. In these times that we live in now, I see God working through the LDS Church in many ways. Particularly amongst people like yourself who seem to really be seeking him. The same thing can be said of many Muslim groups, and even amongst those of various Protestant faiths.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I've found that I've really had to examine the core foundational beliefs of my own faith(grew up baptist, no longer consider myself one though) and filter through the stuff(with God's direction) to determine what was correct and incorrect. I've learned a lot by just humbling myself before God, and getting myself out of the comfort zone that had been in over the years. I advise you to pray on some of the stuff you've read within this thread regarding the innacurracies of Mormon doctrine, and pray on it with an open mind. Many of the things in which people have presented to you here, although seemingly confrontational are truthful and in accordance with scripture. God bless.
Last edited by simpleton; 01-14-2008 at 11:33 AM..
I totally agree with the last sentence. I believe we can all be saved after we've done all we can. If someone robbed me and gave me lip service about being sorry, that wouldn't be enough for me. But if after robbing me, he was sincere about it, made reparations and did all he could do with his means to do better, that's different.
Have to disagree with that. There's nothing we ourselves are doing..it's the work of God, or faith..that's doing everything for us.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So even our faith in itself is coming from God. Now does this mean that by simply believing in the existence of God - we are saved? Well according to the Word no. As spoken through James, this is what it states -
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
So the true faith in God, produces the works. We don't produce the works on our own. If we attribute the works to ourselves, then we are glorifying ourselves and not God. likewise though, if the works themselves aren't manifest - then our faith is a dead one. There's a balance that needs to be achieved in the teaching and professing of doctrine. Many times people(I have done so myself at times as well) will take one verse - and base an entire doctrine off of it. As we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord..he will gradually lead us to the entire picture of his salvation through his Word.
Well, I don't really agree with Mormon doctrine as a whole. But at the same time I have seen many people of the Mormon faith who do have a passion to follow the Gospel. In these times that we live in now, I see God working through the LDS Church in many ways. Particularly amongst people like yourself who seem to really be seeking him. The same thing can be said of many Muslim groups, and even amongst those of various Protestant faiths.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I've found that I've really had to examine the core foundational beliefs of my own faith(grew up baptist, no longer consider myself one though) and filter through the stuff(with God's direction) to determine what was correct and incorrect. I've learned a lot by just humbling myself before God, and getting myself out of the comfort zone that had been in over the years. I advise you to pray on some of the stuff you've read within this thread regarding the innacurracies of Mormon doctrine, and pray on it with an open mind. Many of the things in which people have presented to you here, although seemingly confrontational are truthful and in accordance with scripture. God bless.
Of course, I don't agree with the Baptist doctrine, but I absolutely agree with what you said about humbling oneself, praying and asking if something is true. This is how I became lds. For a long time, I kept asking questions that weren't leading me anywhere. It's only when I humbly asked my Father in Heaven, "what is real, what is true, is what the missionaries telling me truth" that I actually got my answer. A person can debate for a lifetime, but will an answer, a real answer about what is real come through the spirit of a debate or going tit for tat with someone? Or will the answer come through humbly asking Him and reflecting on it? It's not something I like to admit, but that's exactly why it took me 1.5 years to get a testimony about the lds doctrine. Initially, because of all the "other stuff" I'd heard people who were not lds try to teach me about the religion, I wanted to debate with the missionaries. They were very patient with me and answered every single one. It's only when I began asking them "real" questions that mattered to my salvation and humbly asked was truth revealed to me. What really put me off about other churches that I researched was that too often, too many of them always had something negative to say about the mormons. Yet, whenever I talked to the mormons, they had nothing, NOTHING negative to say about other churches. That absolutely amazed me. It humbled me too. Instead of debating, I began to take a closer look at the one church who sought not to verbally assult other church's doctrine: lds church. I wanted to know more about what type of people were Christlike enough to respect other folks beliefs to worship as they saw fit, even though they didn't totally agree with the beliefs of others.
Have to disagree with that. There's nothing we ourselves are doing..it's the work of God, or faith..that's doing everything for us.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So even our faith in itself is coming from God. Now does this mean that by simply believing in the existence of God - we are saved? Well according to the Word no. As spoken through James, this is what it states -
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
So the true faith in God, produces the works. We don't produce the works on our own. If we attribute the works to ourselves, then we are glorifying ourselves and not God. likewise though, if the works themselves aren't manifest - then our faith is a dead one. There's a balance that needs to be achieved in the teaching and professing of doctrine. Many times people(I have done so myself at times as well) will take one verse - and base an entire doctrine off of it. As we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord..he will gradually lead us to the entire picture of his salvation through his Word.
Blessings,
Stephen
Still, you have to have faith in order for Him to have the works. Right? How do you show faith? By doing nothing? No, you have to do works to show faith.
Annibelle: I am sorry that you are offended. I do not recall being nasty or saying "awful things"--I only meant to state the facts as I see them.
This has never been nor ever will be a "your faith, my faith" issue. It all has to do with saving faith. Do we have saving faith in the Jesus of the Bible?
It is a matter of doctrine--are our doctrines true or false? We must all ask ourselves that because the answers can have eternal consequences.
I am praying for you, Annibelle. In love, Preterist
Thanks so much for praying for me, but I am interested in why? I'm grateful that my leaders in the lds faith teach me that if I am happy with my faith, it is absolutely unacceptable, unhealthy and unChristlike for me to go about trying to prove that other folks doctrine is wrong and incorrect. Im grateful that my church leaders teach me to spend time discussing what I believe and not others. I wonder if that's why the lds church continues to grow even in spite of negative doctrine towards them since Joseph Smith, Jr. was killed? Even in spite of that, the church stills grows. I wonder if the church continues to grow because missionaries and members have a positive purpose in spreading only what "we" believe in and not others. I wonder if other faiths had within their doctrine to spend time spreading the gospel of their faith only would their churches grow at the same rate? I'm happy that our leaders teach us to be representatives of our own faith and not the faith of others. That's important. I'm not saying that no one can have an opinion about my fact. I just don't understand or believe another church should or can accurately "represent" my faith and when another church, like my neighbors Baptist church, goes so far as to acutally begin teaching a class in their church about my faith, that just seems alien to me because of how the lds leaders discourage something like that going on amongst its members.
Last edited by annibelle; 01-14-2008 at 12:13 PM..
Reason: additions
You know what I like and dislike most about being mormon? People, other religions, seem to feel so threatened by us that there is always some type of discussion going on about us. I don't see or hear anyone talking about what do Methodists really believe, what do Buddists really believe. When folks continue to question my faith so much they think it'll cause me to believe its not true, but it always has the opposite affect. It tells me that other churches feel threatened. Just like the Romney race. After awhile, the only thing his opponents could hit him with was his faith. So, they sent out in the mail what they felt lds folks believed. That's powerful. We, lds, really must be all that. If we weren't so great, then who would care so about us?
Maybe it is because Methodists dont want to convert everybody! Maybe it is because they dont have to tell everyone that they belong to the only real/right church and why you need to join to be saved.
Still, you have to have faith in order for Him to have the works. Right? How do you show faith? By doing nothing? No, you have to do works to show faith.
The key thing here is "who" the works are being done by. Ask yourself this question tonight, if you are able to get to Heaven based solely on your ability, why did Christ come here?
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Are they being done by ourselves, or by God(Through the Holy Spirit). That's one of the problems I have with Mormon doctrine(not Mormons themselves). God is working through us, but we ourselves can do nothing on our own. It defeats the purpose of Christ if we attribute our salvation to our own merit. We're essentially glorifying ourselves, and not God if we believe salvation is primarily based on our own human efforts.
Last edited by simpleton; 01-14-2008 at 12:21 PM..
Reason: changed everything to "salvation"...:)
Maybe it is because Methodists dont want to convert everybody! Maybe it is because they dont have to tell everyone that they belong to the only real/right church and why you need to join to be saved.
Gee. Is it wrong to want to share what you believe if it's what makes you happy, brings you joy? I don't know what other churches teach, but thanks for letting me know that Methodists don't want to convert or teach what they believe to everyone. I'll remember that the next time I'm shopping and a person of the Methodist faith tries to give me a flyer about coming the their church. I'll let them know that a Methodist person told me that Methodists aren't interested in converting everyone, so just leave me alone. I'll tell them that a Methodist person told me that they don't believe their church is the only real/right church so why should I even bother? So, the if the Methodist doctrine does not try to convert everyone or say their the only church, then should a Methodist not come on the board and try to convert me? It seems like a waist of time if that's the doctrine. I don't want to be a member of just any church that's why I searched for so many years. I want to go to the right church. Yes, that sounds arrogant to even my family, but it's what I believe and not ashamed to say it. I would, however, be ashamed to go around and speak ill of other doctrines, claim their false and such. I can only say what I believe. Isn't that what we're supposed to do? Also, We are only encouraged to tell folks what we believe if and only if they are interested. We want to be the ones to represent ourselves.
Last edited by annibelle; 01-14-2008 at 12:29 PM..
Reason: additions
The key thing here is "who" the works are being done by. Ask yourself this question tonight, if you are able to get to Heaven based solely on your ability, why did Christ come here?
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Are they being done by ourselves, or by God(Through the Holy Spirit). That's one of the problems I have with Mormon doctrine(not Mormons themselves). God is working through us, but we ourselves can do nothing on our own. It defeats the purpose of Christ if we attribute everything to our own merit. We're essentially glorifying ourselves, and not God if we believe salvation is primarily based on our own human efforts.
Sorry, never said or even believed that I could get to Heaven based solely on my abilities. I said by faith and works: yes Heavenly Father's works, but I still have to show my faith in Him by doing some work too like fellowshipping, obey the commandments, reading scripture, doing all that I can. Only then I believe will He do works.
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