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So then you DO believe it is possible to crucify Christ afresh, and that there
is forgiveness for those whom the author of Hebrews indicates it is IMPOSSIBLE.
He doesn't indicate any age whatsoever. He states it is IMPOSSIBLE. But you
are trumping his writing with the recorded words of Jesus that "all things are
possible."
Maybe then it is "possible" for people to be separated from
God for all eternity since with God "all things are possible." Please note the
circular reasoning of such a notion and why it cannot act as a trump card over
IMPOSSIBLE without opening up a whole new can of theological/philosophical
worms. The only way to be consistent is to take Mystic's approach of, "If I
don't like what it says, I condemn the authors as ignorant savages,". He is
consistent, but that approach consistently produces one's own religion.
God in His omniscience knew who would reject Him before they were even born, so why would He hate anyone literally for anything? He gave Jesus for all and He knew that there would be those who would reject Him again and again. He even hardened the hearts of many. Evidently there will come a time when every knee will bow in adoration before Him and they will confess Him openly and willingly.
Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (aionios krima - judgment of the age).
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Mark 10
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible
The scriptures are not to be pitted against one another. We know that with God all things are possible but not so with men. I believe that what is being spoken of in Hebrews 6 is that it was impossible for Paul and the apostles to renew these people to repentance. In 2 Corin.2, for example, Paul speaks about bringing one who had been living in sin, to sorrow, and that now the congregation was to accept him because he had been made sorrowful and had changed. Here in the situation described in Hebrews 6, this would not be possible through the efforts of Paul. We know, however, that with God all things are possible. Verse 3: If God permit.
God does not contradict Himself. With God all things are possible. Concerning eternal separation, it is not God's will that anyone be lost forever and He has already declared what the end result for all will be. He does not act against His own ultimate intentions or purposes. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-30-2014 at 07:32 AM..
I believe that God is in control of all things. He allows certain things to happen and He shuts the door to other things, according to what He has purposed. Something that is said to be impossible would be impossible if God intends for it to be impossible. If He intends for it to be possible, then it will be possible. Just like with Paul's thorn in the flesh. Paul prayed for God to remove it several times. God could have removed it. It was possible for Him to remove it but He did not remove it because He wanted Paul to learn something. So then, it was not possible for the thorn to be removed because God did not intend for it to be removed. Or with the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus said that He could have called His angels to deliver Him, but this was not God's intention. God could have saved Him from death, but it was not His will for Jesus, so it was not possible It all depends on what God wants. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-30-2014 at 08:07 AM..
Do you understand what "reading a text literally" means? Again....I will ask: Do you honestly think that when I say "it's raining cats and dogs" that poodles and felines will literally be falling out of the sky? Or do you understand the concept of figure of speech, and that the person speaking or writing may not mean EXACTLY what is on the text, or what comes out of their mouth?
Has it occurred to you that something written in the OT was something that was written to the Jewish people 3000 years ago and that by believing it, we are not required to actually DO that now?
God in His omniscience knew who would reject Him before they were even born, so why would He hate anyone literally for anything? He gave Jesus for all and He knew that there would be those who would reject Him again and again. He even hardened the hearts of many. Evidently there will come a time when every knee will bow in adoration before Him and they will confess Him openly and willingly.
Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (aionios krima - judgment of the age).
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Mark 10
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible
The scriptures are not to be pitted against one another. We know that with God all things are possible but not so with men. I believe that what is being spoken of in Hebrews 6 is that it was impossible for Paul and the apostles to renew these people to repentance. In 2 Corin.2, for example, Paul speaks about bringing one who had been living in sin, to sorrow, and that now the congregation was to accept him because he had been made sorrowful and had changed. Here in the situation described in Hebrews 6, this would not be possible through the efforts of Paul. We know, however, that with God all things are possible. Verse 3: If God permit.
God does not contradict Himself. With God all things are possible. Concerning eternal separation, it is not God's will that anyone be lost forever and He has already declared what the end result for all will be. He does not act against His own ultimate intentions or purposes. God bless and peace.
This is the same kind of verbal shenanigans utilized by fundamentalists for justification of some of their doctrines. You've have created a verse that says "it is impossible for PAUL to renew any to repentance." But Paul was the kind of guy who would follow that with, "so I leave it to God and His purposes." Thereby pointing to God, as He always did, as the final judge. Ending the way it does in no way reflects Paul's writing---and that's a textual criticism understanding of scripture.
Now your argument should be---but Paul did not write Hebrews--which I think is absolutely correct. It was probably one of the latest written epistles, by a follower of Paul, who was already indoctrinated with the early beliefs of Christians--that for those who turn away from Christ, there remains no sacrifice. And, incidentally, with your interpretation there MUST remain a sacrifice because Paul, or whoever wrote Hebrews, could not possibly stand in for the crucifixion of Christ. That author was not speaking of HIS inability to accomplish something, He was stating that a second crucifixion of Christ would be shameful and therefore would not happen.
But the interpretation you've offered would put Christ on the cross a second time--and as the author of Hebrews states, that is shameful.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-30-2014 at 08:56 AM..
Reason: spelling
And this proves my point. A universalist view is EXACTLY the same in structure as a fundamentalist view. Both have to revere some scripture above others in order to meet their pre-conceived belief system.
Warden, what do you do with these bible passages? Do you revere them equally to other passages?
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 1 Cor 15:22
in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; Eph 1:10
whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age. Acts 3:21
for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; Rom 8:20-21
because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. Col 1:15-20
who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things Php 3:21
for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief,that to the whole He might do kindness....because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory -- to the ages. Amen. Rom 11:32, 36
He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; Jn 1:9
Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is none else. By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.Is 45:22-23
(Reiterated in Rom 14:11, & Php 2:11)
who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 1 Tim 2:4
I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2
But loveyourenemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
God loves the one who sins against Him. If He did not, none of us would be reconciled to Him. We were all once His enemies. Jesus died for the sin of the world, and that includes all sin. Love overcomes all sin and all evil. That is why it is the most powerful force in the world. God is love. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-30-2014 at 09:08 AM..
But loveyourenemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
God loves the one who sins against Him. Love overcomes all sin and all evil. That is why it is the most powerful force in the world. God is love. God bless.
You really have yet to deal with the verses that directly state that God hates. Why is that?
Hi Vizio, you really have yet to show me one verse that says that God is hate. I have asked you to show me several times but there has been no response. I have already dealt with verses that say that God hates. God bless.
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall loveyour neighbor and hateyour enemy.’ But I say to you, loveyourenemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. ...
God bless.
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