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One does not have to be divine in order to foment fervent disciple-ship. Hilter did so. As did Ghandi, Martin Luther, and Nelson Mandela.
The primary reason that Christianity grew to world-wide status was the Emperor Constantine's official sanctioning of that religion in the 3rd Century. Since Rome was growing and expanding its sphere of influence over other nations, Christianity rode along with it.
In other words: Christianity was in the right place at the right time. Had Constantine not had a sort of religious conversion upon seeing "a form of a cross in the clouds over the words: 'conquer by this'" before his battle at Milvian Bridge--from which he emerged victorious--Christianity would be today about as popular as Janism.
For something that is happenstance, Jesus Christ and Christianity has had a huge impact on the world. Hard to believe it was just random. Seems like it would have faded out over time.
That Christ's loving sacrifice resulted in the shedding of His blood through horrendous scourging and crucifixion at the hands of our savage and barbaric ancestors is a fact. It was inevitable but it is NOT a requirement of forgiveness. That is primitive ignorance ("carnal milk") speaking . . . NOT God. It is the last part of your sentence that is true IF we listen to the guidance of His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness.
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Originally Posted by jimmiej
Scripture says otherwise, as I quoted.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Not when it is properly divided using the Comforter and testing the Spirit against agape love.
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Originally Posted by jimmiej
Division is not your problem- subtraction is.
Division is a form of substraction . . . just as multiplication is a form of addition. What is subtracted is the veil of ignorance over the nature of God and His motives. It is replaced by the true nature of God unambiguously revealed by Jesus.
Because what we sow in this human body is not quickened until it dies. 1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: . . .
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection of the bodies, it says nothing about what we are talking about. Yes, Jesus could not have been resurrected if He had not died first, but that was not the question.
You know God is wrong and you are not afraid to publish your (one sided) views.
God's word says - Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission for sins! Hebrews 9:22
The Crucifixion of Jesus Christ was not murder - It was not a tragedy - It was a glorious achievement planned by God before the Earth was ever formed!
There is just one thing God holds in Higher esteem than His Name. That is His Word!
You need to learn how to read! Your opinion doesn't mean Squat! It can't change anything! The only thing in this world that matters is obeying God's Holy Word(s). God's word is power; His word is TRUTH
You are calling God a liar by insisting He doesn't mean what He says & wrote.
Sorry, but you quoted one specific bible verse, from the book of Hebrews, which was written by Paul, not by God. So no, I'm not calling God a liar.
You bring up a good point, however, because most of what passes for Christian doctrine was based on Paul's interpretations 30 years after Christ's death. And most Christians, having been immersed in this theology since childhood, take it for granted that this is what Jesus intended, although it is my opinion that Paul was mistaken in many of his interpretations.
And yes, my opinion doesn't mean squat, which makes it as worthwhile as your opinion.
Because what we sow in this human body is not quickened until it dies. 1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: . . .
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
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Originally Posted by pcamps
Plain as daylight.
Apparently not, pcamps as Finn reveals frustratingly!
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection of the bodies, it says nothing about what we are talking about. Yes, Jesus could not have been resurrected if He had not died first, but that was not the question.
Yes it was the question but you are so confused in your indoctrinated beliefs about the wrong things that you do not recognize what should be obvious to anyone. This is about Christ's fate and ours, Finn. Christ is just the first-born as Spirit. We are all to follow. That is what this is all about . . . not whatever nonsense you believe about God and Jesus. God is neither vain nor egotistical. You gain no brownie points by your professed beliefs. What you DO in agape love is what matters to your ultimate fate . . . even though we are all "saved as by fire" thanks to Jesus.
One does not have to be divine in order to foment fervent disciple-ship. Hilter did so. As did Ghandi, Martin Luther, and Nelson Mandela.
The primary reason that Christianity grew to world-wide status was the Emperor Constantine's official sanctioning of that religion in the 3rd Century. Since Rome was growing and expanding its sphere of influence over other nations, Christianity rode along with it.
In other words: Christianity was in the right place at the right time. Had Constantine not had a sort of religious conversion upon seeing "a form of a cross in the clouds over the words: 'conquer by this'" before his battle at Milvian Bridge--from which he emerged victorious--Christianity would be today about as popular as Janism.
Good analysis except for the fact that this was a time of essentially holding actions by the Roman Empire before the fall.
....you are so confused in your indoctrinated beliefs about the wrong things that you do not recognize what should be obvious to anyone.
You have not even understood the question, so maybe you should not be mocking others about not seeing the obvious.
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This is about Christ's fate and ours, Finn. Christ is just the first-born as Spirit. We are all to follow. That is what this is all about . . . not whatever nonsense you believe about God and Jesus. God is neither vain nor egotistical.
Clearly you are confused about death, resurrection, being born again. They are not the same event.
Being born again:
Jesus: "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit"
Mystic: Death gives birth to spirit.
These verses show you do not need to die in order to be born again. These people had been born again, and were still alive and kicking:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come"
"According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope"
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning,"
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him"
"We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning"
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
But then again, you are still missing the point, because the question was not whether or not Jesus was resurrected as a Spirit. I assume you miss the point in purpose, because it has been clarified to you so many times already.
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You gain no brownie points by your professed beliefs. What you DO in agape love is what matters to your ultimate fate . . . even though we are all "saved as by fire" thanks to Jesus
You gain no brownie points by parroting 'agape love' all day long, unless you actually display it.
And, unfortunately, the penal substitution theory is by far the most popular.
Yep. Believed it most my life but am grateful to be free of it now.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Question: what is your personal view on the topic.
Well, IF I was a Christian, and IF I was convinced that the Jesus narrative was historically, literally true then I'd be compelled by this theory of atonement ...
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Originally Posted by pcamps
None of the above, for there is nothing greater to be taken from the cross than God demonstrating through Christ that not only we are so loved by him, but that as always been the case too, and to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that he is not only your sin against, so return home and enjoy the life you are missing out upon.
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Not a message of believe or perish, or turn or burn, but God is not holding your sin against like you have always believed and been told. Your sins are forgiven, don't worry if the fundamentalists tell you you are not forgiven, it is the fact that you are forgiven that causes you to return, so come on home. Talk about news of great joy, if this does not touch you, nothing will.
I think I would also be compelled by the earliest theory, Recapitulation...
This view originated with Irenaeus (125-202 AD). He sees Christ as the new Adam, who systematically undoes what Adam did. ... In applying this notion to the life of Jesus, then, Irenaeus is not merely saying that Jesus "repeats" the history of man or of Israel, but that He is "the Father's 'summary statement," as well as the "Logos of the Father, the logic or purpose in and through which the whole divine economy is conceived and implemented." Behind Irenaeus' use, then, is a rhetorical conception of redemptive history as the speech of the Father.
Under the theory of Recapitulation it is the Incarnation, the entire life lived by Jesus, culminating in his obedience at the cross, that represent the salvific work of Jesus our Lord.
BUT, even though I'm NOT a Christian, (which you know, Finn) and even though I'm NOT convinced that the Jesus narrative is historically and literally true, I think that it's possible that someone like Judge Pcamps realized the truth...
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Originally Posted by pcamps
None of the above, for there is nothing greater to be taken from the cross than God demonstrating through Christ that not only we are so loved by him, but that as always been the case too, and to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that he is not only your sin against, so return home and enjoy the life you are missing out upon.
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Not a message of believe or perish, or turn or burn, but God is not holding your sin against like you have always believed and been told. Your sins are forgiven, don't worry if the fundamentalists tell you you are not forgiven, it is the fact that you are forgiven that causes you to return, so come on home. Talk about news of great joy, if this does not touch you, nothing will.
... and told a story (perhaps based on a real guy's life) to demonstrate that truth, which other people took up and retold, and added to, and more people obfuscated the point and it somehow got all turned around and twisted until people thought Jesus dying was about an angry God needing to be appeased by a blood sacrifice, which was exactly the opposite of the truth.
Oh... Here's another theory of atonement that I found quite beautiful:
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Many of you don't like my consciousness explanation . . . so let me try an analogy again to music. First it is necessary to understand that the complexity of life and the universe is comprised entirely of vibratory energy in manifestations way too complex to easily contemplate. For example, even just one of us is comprised of a huge complex of vibratory energy in uncountable forms and functions (cells, neurons, micro-organisms, etc.) . . . but in reality it is ALL just energy in vibration (no "solid" anything . . . no flesh, no whatever). Our sensory system just confuses our consciousness (a pure vibratory energy form) by arraying these vibrations into forms we can "see, touch, feel, hear, smell, etc." . . . as separate "things" that have consequences when we interact with them as "things." Complex and confusing enough to make my point?
This is the reason for using music as the analogy . . . it is just sound energy vibrations that our consciousness can recognize as "composites" that we call "songs" . . . rhythm and melody in various keys, etc. God is the whole symphony of the universe. Humans are instruments for playing universe music in the human orchestra. We were and still are "out-of-tune" instruments . . . playing badly, wrong melodies, passages, completely off-key and discordant . . more like noise. God needed at least one human instrument to be in tune and playing properly so the rest could attune themselves properly. However, human instruments are only born in the wombs of women . . . hence Jesus.
Jesus had to develop . . . as we all do . . . and had to attune His vibrations (instrument) perfectly with God. If you have "two tuning forks" . . . one the entire universe (God) and the other in a human body (Jesus) . . . they are not on the same scale . . . so in one sense they are separate. But once they are resonating PERFECTLY they are indistinguishable . . . and the key they resonate in is identical! In the case of God that "key" is Love. Since they are vibrations indistinguishable one from one the other . . . they cannot be anything else but One.
Our human orchestra is located in a specific part of the universe where ALL the human instruments are supposed to be seated as part of the Celestial orchestra once they are properly "tuned" and trained to "play" properly. Unfortunately, all human instruments must be reborn as Spirit to actually join the Celestial orchestra in the human section. Jesus achieved the perfection of love and showed us how to "tune" our instruments and "play" in tune. When He died . . . He was reborn as Spirit and was seated as part of the Celestial orchestra in the human section as the Holy Spirit (Conductor) where He continues to help each of us "tune" our instruments and learn to "play" in tune. However since Jesus's "playing" is indistinguishable from God's . . . they remain One.
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What is subtracted is the veil of ignorance over the nature of God and His motives. It is replaced by the true nature of God unambiguously revealed by Jesus.
