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So I've been studying various theologians on YouTube and most of them rightly point out that Mark, the earliest gospel, never has Jesus once hinting that in order to be "saved" one must believe on him as Lord and savior.
Matthew and Luke focus more on trying to make this itinerant rabbi named Jesus more god-like by making him born of a virgin, the son of God etc, but again I am not aware of any place in the two gospels that Jesus says, "Believe on me and you will be saved".
Actually, it isn't until we get to John and Acts that we have Jesus and Paul saying, "Whosoever believes in me has eternal life, those who don't believe on me are condemned already..., if you confess with your mouth and believe God raised him from the dead you will be saved, believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Paul)
So how is it that Matthew, Mark and Luke never once mention believing in Jesus as a criteria? Only John has this critical element vital to our salvation. Sounds like it wasn't part of the original message Jesus came bearing and only later evolved as a sort of "threat" of eternal punishment inflicted to threaten pagans to convert to Christianity or else, as they were already very familiar with the concept of eternal hellfire from the Greek myths.
I'd be interested in hearing some more about this evolution from no belief in Jesus to absolute belief in Jesus. Can anyone fill in some of the gaps as to how this dogma evolved?
Intelligent, thoughtful replies only please. No insults and shouts of "heretic" appreciated.
By misunderstanding what the jailer was being asked. He knew it was in the #### for know fault of his own and asked Paul and Silas how do i get out of this one and they basically told him Jesus Christ is an ever present help in times of trouble and abundantly available in times of need, have faith in him to save you in this situation.
In fact if this jailer needed proof he only had to see Paul's and Silas's salvation happen right before his very eyes, both of them had probably been singing of their savior and strong deliverer through the night.
By misunderstanding what the jailer was being asked. He knew it was in the #### for know fault of his own and asked Paul and Silas how do i get out of this one and they basically told him Jesus Christ is an ever present help in times of trouble and abundantly available in times of need, have faith in him to save you in this situation.
In fact if this jailer needed proof he only had to see Paul's and Silas's salvation happen right before his very eyes, both of them had probably been singing of their savior and strong deliverer through the night.
But how is it that Mark never once has Jesus saying, "You must believe in me in order to be saved" while in John, written some 40 years later, that's all Jesus is saying throughout the gospel. Frankly, this sounds like a propaganda campaign by the writers of John to scare pagans into converting to Christianity. That it is totally absent in Mark tells methis is not an original teaching of Jesus--that the command you must believe in Jesus for salvation is just a concoction by later Christian theologians like Tertullian, Augustine, and their ilk to threaten pagans with eternal torment if they don't accept Jesus, and by default accepting "Holy Mother Church" as their leaders.
But how is it that Mark never once has Jesus saying, "You must believe in me in order to be saved" while in John, written some 40 years later, that's all Jesus is saying throughout the gospel. Frankly, this sounds like a propaganda campaign by the writers of John to scare pagans into converting to Christianity. That it is totally absent in Mark tells methis is not an original teaching of Jesus--that the command you must believe in Jesus for salvation is just a concoction by later Christian theologians like Tertullian, Augustine, and their ilk to threaten pagans with eternal torment if they don't accept Jesus, and by default accepting "Holy Mother Church" as their leaders.
Even though Mark is written in a different literary style, repentance and belief leading to change is still shown. Also, the parables are teaching of salvation leading to life.
But how is it that Mark never once has Jesus saying, "You must believe in me in order to be saved" while in John, written some 40 years later, that's all Jesus is saying throughout the gospel. Frankly, this sounds like a propaganda campaign by the writers of John to scare pagans into converting to Christianity. That it is totally absent in Mark tells methis is not an original teaching of Jesus--that the command you must believe in Jesus for salvation is just a concoction by later Christian theologians like Tertullian, Augustine, and their ilk to threaten pagans with eternal torment if they don't accept Jesus, and by default accepting "Holy Mother Church" as their leaders.
It could be a concoction by God... isn't that at least a possibility?
So I've been studying various theologians on YouTube and most of them rightly point out that Mark, the earliest gospel, never has Jesus once hinting that in order to be "saved" one must believe on him as Lord and savior.
Matthew and Luke focus more on trying to make this itinerant rabbi named Jesus more god-like by making him born of a virgin, the son of God etc, but again I am not aware of any place in the two gospels that Jesus says, "Believe on me and you will be saved".
Actually, it isn't until we get to John and Acts that we have Jesus and Paul saying, "Whosoever believes in me has eternal life, those who don't believe on me are condemned already..., if you confess with your mouth and believe God raised him from the dead you will be saved, believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Paul)
So how is it that Matthew, Mark and Luke never once mention believing in Jesus as a criteria? Only John has this critical element vital to our salvation. Sounds like it wasn't part of the original message Jesus came bearing and only later evolved as a sort of "threat" of eternal punishment inflicted to threaten pagans to convert to Christianity or else, as they were already very familiar with the concept of eternal hellfire from the Greek myths.
I'd be interested in hearing some more about this evolution from no belief in Jesus to absolute belief in Jesus. Can anyone fill in some of the gaps as to how this dogma evolved?
Intelligent, thoughtful replies only please. No insults and shouts of "heretic" appreciated.
Salvation by grace through faith (believing in Jesus) is not a concept which evolved. Apart from the gospel accounts, the apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works (Eph. 2:8-9). Ephesians was written somewhere around A.D. 60. So long before the apostle John wrote his gospel account the fact that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus was made clear by Paul.
Now, although the gospel of John was written probably between A.D 85-95, but possibly earlier, John was an apostle and recorded what Jesus said during His public ministry. What he wrote was under the superintendence of God the Holy Spirit and is therefore trustworthy.
According to the Bible Knowledge Commentary, the date usually accepted by conservative scholars for the dating of Acts is around A.D. 60-62. So again, the fact that salvation is by believing in Jesus (Acts 16:30-31) was recorded much earlier than the date that John wrote his gospel account.
Each of the gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John had a different emphasis in writing their gospel accounts. Matthew's purpose was to present Jesus as King. Mark emphasized Jesus as servant while Luke presented Jesus as the Son of Man. And John's emphasis was on the deity of Jesus. Therefore, the content of each gospel account reflected the intent of the gospel writers.
And the gospel of John, Acts, and Ephesians (and all of the New Testament) were written long before the time of Tertullian and Augustine, so how can you say as you did in post #3 that salvation though faith in Christ is a concoction by later theologians?
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-21-2014 at 11:28 AM..
Even though Mark is written in a different literary style, repentance and belief leading to change is still shown. Also, the parables are teaching of salvation leading to life.
All of these are beautiful thoughts, expecially repentance (from sin, I presume); belief is fine, but belief in what? Nowhere in Mark is "belief in" followed by "Me". So Mark is not really saying that Jesus went around preaching "Believe in me for your salvation", despite this being the central theme of his message according to John. Surely if John were teaching "Believe in Me" through a revelation of the Holy Spirit, that same Holy Spirit would have inspired or instructed Mark to say the exact same thing. In fact, if all four of the gospels were inspired by the Holy Spirit they'd all be saying the exact same thing, but they don't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
It could be a concoction by God... isn't that at least a possibility?
No, not a possibility.
Concoction by corrupt churchmen to threaten pagans to become Christian or face eternal torment? Definitely a possibility.
I tried to be nice... moving on... God not allowed here...
I thought you were being facetious, which is not nice. If you were using my word to suggest it was God's idea that Jesus should proclaim salvation by no one but him, then it's not right to put concoct with God; God cannot concoct. The two are mutually exclusive.
So I've been studying various theologians on YouTube and most of them rightly point out that Mark, the earliest gospel, never has Jesus once hinting that in order to be "saved" one must believe on him as Lord and savior.
Matthew and Luke focus more on trying to make this itinerant rabbi named Jesus more god-like by making him born of a virgin, the son of God etc, but again I am not aware of any place in the two gospels that Jesus says, "Believe on me and you will be saved".
Actually, it isn't until we get to John and Acts that we have Jesus and Paul saying, "Whosoever believes in me has eternal life, those who don't believe on me are condemned already..., if you confess with your mouth and believe God raised him from the dead you will be saved, believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Paul)
So how is it that Matthew, Mark and Luke never once mention believing in Jesus as a criteria? Only John has this critical element vital to our salvation. Sounds like it wasn't part of the original message Jesus came bearing and only later evolved as a sort of "threat" of eternal punishment inflicted to threaten pagans to convert to Christianity or else, as they were already very familiar with the concept of eternal hellfire from the Greek myths.
I'd be interested in hearing some more about this evolution from no belief in Jesus to absolute belief in Jesus. Can anyone fill in some of the gaps as to how this dogma evolved?
Intelligent, thoughtful replies only please. No insults and shouts of "heretic" appreciated.
The 4 Gospels covered Jesus' life, ministry and death UNDER the Jewish dispensation as they were all under the Old Law as Jews until Christs death. Salvation at that time was not heavily stressed, rather knowing about God and Jesus. It was preparatory work. John wrote after the Epistles were written so he could include and validate the teaching about salvation.
The Epistles are the basis for the new "Christian" ekklesia and it's purpose, which was to acquaint People with Jesus' "New", not on earth, assignment.
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