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Old 05-26-2015, 05:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
But, the LAW was nailed on the cross, wasn't it???...
The Law was fulfilled by the cross...
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matt. 5:17)
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx View Post
Absolutely. What evidence do you have that it is not?

Jesus Himself attested to the Old Testament as the Word of God in Matthew 15:3:
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Again in Matthew 22:31:
‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’
He states here that people are to read what God has spoken in the Scriptures. Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and His attitude toward it was nothing less than complete trust and authority.
The very verse you believe states it is not. if it is the mouth of God it would say it is written that man shall live by what is written, but being stiff necked, the fundamentalist refuses to see it does not say that, remaining blind to the understanding that the scriptures and Christ are not the same, if they were, the scriptures would be life too, and Jesus said in them(the scriptures) you think(well your thinking is wrong) you have eternal life, but what they do say is that they testify of the one in whom is eternal life.
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:12 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Exodus 31:15-16----For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Yes, Jews interpret their texts, and long before Jesus was around the determination of what was work included the transportation of any object

What is Shabbat (Jewish Sabbath)? | Jewish Virtual Library

Jesus knew exactly what He was doing. He was telling those dopehead fundamentalists that the purpose of scripture wasn't to control men, it was to enable men. So He specifically said pick up that mat and take it---a point the finger in your face rebuke of the Pharisees who knew scripture well but nothing about the toward Whom the scripture points.

Paul went further. He stated flat out that to live by the LAW is to die by the LAW. His point being that the LAW does not exist PERIOD for those seeking Christ. Basically the LAW is DEAD. It was a further argument beyond where Jesus had gone.
From the TaNaKh

Exodus 31:
14.Therefore, keep the Sabbath, for it is a sacred thing for you. Those who desecrate it shall be put to death, for whoever performs work on it, that soul will be cut off from the midst of its people.

Rashi Commentary:
shall be put to death: If there are witnesses and a warning.

will be cut off: without warning. -[from Mechilta]

Those who desecrate it: Heb. מְחַלְלֶיהָ, [those] who treat its sanctity as profane.

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Old 05-26-2015, 05:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The very verse you believe states it is. if it is the mouth of God it would say it is written that man shall live by what is written, but being stiff necked, the fundamentalist refuses to see it does not say that, remaining blind to the understanding that the scriptures and Christ are not the same, if they were the scriptures would be life too, and Jesus said in them you think you have eternal life, but what they do say is that they testify of the one in whom is eternal life.
Again, no one is arguing that the pages or the ink or the verbs and nouns bring salvation, but it is the knowledge of God through the Scripture, which is the written Word of God that we come to a knowledge of Him.

You say, 'the Scriptures and Christ are not the same', but the Scriptures are the living, breathing, written Word of God! You are the one who rejects the Scripture and must prove your argument.
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:18 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx View Post
Am I the only one who finds it humorous that Mystic quotes Jesus quoting the Old Testament to prove the Old Testament is wrong? Amazing.

Here's the full quote from Matthew 15:
Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”

Which is a direct quote of Isaiah 29:13:
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."
It is striking that Matthew 15 finds Jesus rebuking the Pharisees and religious teachers for not following the Old Testament, instead following their own man-made doctrines.
From the TaNaKh

Yeshayahu 29:

13.And the Lord said: "Because this people has come near; with their mouth and with their lips they honor Me, but their heart they draw far away from Me, and their fear of Me has become a command of people, which has been taught.

Rashi Commentary:
Because this people has come near: Jonathan renders: Because this people has aggrandized itself. I.e., they have come near to raise themselves up to the heavens. They show themselves as though honoring Me with mouth and lip, but their heart they have drawn far away from Me.

and their fear of Me has become: not wholehearted, but by the command of the people who teach them, they show themselves as humbled before Him in order to entice Him with your mouth.

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Old 05-26-2015, 05:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
From the TaNaKh

Yeshayahu 29:

13.And the Lord said: "Because this people has come near; with their mouth and with their lips they honor Me, but their heart they draw far away from Me, and their fear of Me has become a command of people, which has been taught.

Rashi Commentary:
Because this people has come near: Jonathan renders: Because this people has aggrandized itself. I.e., they have come near to raise themselves up to the heavens. They show themselves as though honoring Me with mouth and lip, but their heart they have drawn far away from Me.

and their fear of Me has become: not wholehearted, but by the command of the people who teach them, they show themselves as humbled before Him in order to entice Him with your mouth.

Is there a reason you must add the words of men to the Word of God? Is God not capable of speaking for Himself? Are His words insufficient?
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:31 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx View Post
Again, no one is arguing that the pages or the ink or the verbs and nouns bring salvation, but it is the knowledge of God through the Scripture, which is the written Word of God that we come to a knowledge of Him.

You say, 'the Scriptures and Christ are not the same', but the Scriptures are the living, breathing, written Word of God! You are the one who rejects the Scripture and must prove your argument.
No, they are not living and breathing, you just think they are. It is quite evident throughout the gospels that Jesus Christ did not rely on the scriptures to convey what the Father had shown him, the beatitudes, the parables and sayings of which make up a big percentage of his teaching lack any scripture whatsoever.

Here are examples of Jesus Christ using scripture to either rebuke or correct fundamentalists who boasted they were scripturally right

"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance


"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.


You simply do not see in the gospels, Jesus teaching from the scriptures, i know this does not sit well with you because you idolize the bible and given it a place in your heart reserved only for Christ himself.
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:34 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx View Post
This is not what Paul was saying at all. Paul was saying what Jesus taught, which is that nobody can be innocent of the Law and if you break one, you are guilty of breaking them all. The Law cannot make someone righteous, it is only through Christ can one be washed white as snow.


Bereisheet 6:

9These are the generations of Noah, Noah was a righteous man he was perfect in his generations; Noah walked with God.

Rashi Commentary:
These are the generations of Noah—Noah was a righteous man: Since Scripture mentions him, it tells his praise, as it is said (Prov. 10:7): “The mention of a righteous man is for a blessing.” - [Pesikta Rabbathi 12]. Another explanation [for why the names of the children are not mentioned immediately following “These are the generations of Noah”]: To teach you that the main generations [progeny] of the righteous are good deeds. — [Mid. Tan. Noah 2]

in his generations: Some of our Sages interpret it [the word בְּדֹרֹתָיו] favorably: How much more so if he had lived in a generation of righteous people, he would have been even more righteous. Others interpret it derogatorily: In comparison with his generation he was righteous, but if he had been in Abraham’s generation, he would not have been considered of any importance. — [Sanh. 108a, Gen. Rabbah 30:9, Tan. Noach 5]

Noah walked with God: But concerning Abraham, Scripture says (below 24:40): “[the Lord] before Whom I walked.” Noah required [God’s] support to uphold him [in righteousness], but Abraham strengthened himself and walked in his righteousness by himself. — [Tan. Noach 5]


walked: (הִתְהַלֶּךְ) is here in the past tense. The following is the usage of the “lammed” : in the “heavy” (כָּבֵד) form [this refers to conjugations with a dagesh in one of the root letters, in this case, in the lammed], one form can be used [both] for the future [really the imperative] and the past tense. For example, (Gen. ibid. 13): “Rise, walk (הִתְהַלֵּךְ)” is the future (i.e., imperative). “Noah walked (הִתְהַלֶּךְ)” is the past. (I Sam. 12:19): “Pray (הִתְפַּלֵּל) for your servants” is future (i.e., imperative), and (I Kings 8:42) “and he will come and pray (וְהִתְפַּלֵּל) toward this house” is past, only that the “vav” at the beginning converts it to the future. — [as explained by Mizrachi]
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:35 PM
 
Location: US
32,533 posts, read 22,192,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx View Post
The Law was fulfilled by the cross...
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matt. 5:17)
Do you know what fulfill means?...
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:40 PM
 
Location: US
32,533 posts, read 22,192,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx View Post
The Law was fulfilled by the cross...
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matt. 5:17)
What is the rest of that?...



Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



Has heaven and earth passed?...
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