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See there is no mercy from God for the devil and demons and fallen angels , and then men and women who have passed on with no protected souls , says from Revelation 20:10 ..That the devil , the beast, and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire , and will be tormented , they will not die there ``........as it is not strong enough to make them die .............. but in Revelations 20 :14 ``death and hell were caste into the lake of fire , this is the second death`` , were it does not say people will be tormented there but it says it is a second death , so hopefully this second death will eliminate the spirits of men and women who had no power at all like the devil had
So says your interpretation of hell and damnation.
Fortunately, Jesus has a completely DIFFERENT truth, if only those with ears would LISTEN..
Yes the universalists want to railroad the issue into this the same way atheists want to railroad theism into a similar strawman characterization of Christianity. But it does not wash.
I believe in a God of love and utterly reject the idea that God goes for vengeance, power, self-glory, control, or torture or that God requires some special song and dance in order to forgive people. I think it is entirely 100% about what is in our best interest. BUT I also don't believe in any supreme "power of love" to overcome all difficulties or that we don't make any decisions of ultimate significance. I don't believe that heaven and hell is a matter of reward and punishment but rather comes from the logical consequences of our own choices. The result is that I can take the Bible and the teachings of Jesus more seriously than the universalists are willing.
I frankly think there is a bigger picture than what either extreme tries to paint things into.
I think we've been through this and as long as the possibility of change remains we have no quarrel.
It all comes down to God's unchanging nature and truth (which are not hidden), not what one believes about them. God's truth does not depend on human belief, approval or agreement.
The Bible is absolutely NOT "all over the map and often in total contradictions in it's descriptions of God" --
God has revealed His ways, truths, plans, purpose and promises for mankind in Scripture. People trying to fit God's Word of Truth into their own views (which sound good to men) are all over the map in their views. All Scripture is inspired by God -- Who is not the author of confusion.
If your beliefs about God are based on your stated beliefs about Scripture (above), it is no wonder you are confused. If your beliefs about God are not based on Scripture, it is likewise, no wonder you are confused.
You can't honestly be serious about the idea that even the Old Testament presents a unified picture of the nature of God.
I think we've been through this and as long as the possibility of change remains we have no quarrel.
Then perhaps that is essence of the disagreement. Change requires free will and bad habits destroy free will.
Yes God can intervene, even to liberate our free will enough for us to make a choice. But He does require a choice and it is because the choice is a requirement for change to happen. You seem to want there to be a get out jail (escape the consequences of your choices) free card, and want God to ignore choices and keep making us choose again until we get it right. Once a choice is made that road/possibility is closed -- otherwise choices are meaningless. "Groundhog day" (the movie) is a nice fantasy, but life isn't like that - in fact, it is an antithesis to life, where nothing we do matters any more. It is no life at all.
You can't honestly be serious about the idea that even the Old Testament presents a unified picture of the nature of God.
Paul went out seeking virgins to betroth them to Christ, and this was something that was never seen although it is clearly behind God's intentions to add to the nation.
God's Torah is his nature and there is not a single thing new in the New testament, the law and the prophets stand and if you find anything in the New Testament, it is only for you to understand the secrets of the old Testament and still we are all under this law, there are two laws for the both of us.
There is a law for the flesh
There is a law for the spirit.
There is therefore no difference between slave and free man because ALL are slaves in this body with a law of flesh pertaining to this body, and ALL are free in the hidden man of the heart we are free.
There is therefore no difference in male or female because we ARE ALL female in this body of flesh, and all of us have a male spirit in the hidden man of the heart.
There is therefore no difference between Jew and Gentile for the same reason, God did not do away with Jew and Gentile but they are members of one body. The outer man is a gentile and there is the law for the gentile but the inner hidden man of the heart is a Jew, and there is a law of freedom for that hidden man of the heart.
You have two mothers and YOU ARE BOTH SONS.
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
How in the world does Hagar pertain to Jerusalem and how in the world is she YOUR MOTHER?
How in the world does the law pertain to Ishmael when he had NOTHING to do with the law and yet he is under the law?
YOU are the first born
YOU are the second born
You think there isn't two laws?
There is a law for the flesh with the first born in this body of death as being a slave, but thank God we have a New mother, and we have another life to live in Jerusalem as a freeman, and we are under a law of grace and mercy, but it is still the same law.
The eyes of the flesh read the law of Moses and they only see slavery or punishment but the eyes of the spirit look at see a wedding contract and a love letter to a would be bride.
Just as People are told,'' Depart from me, you breakers of the law.''
These people were willed with iniquity, with lawlessness and that is exactly what it is because if you disrespect the law, then you will never be able to see the beauty behind each law and that beauty is Christ, it is him, he is the word and knowing the truth and grace of the law is to literally know Jesus because he is in fact, the word of God.
Each person is a temple and you can stand against everything that is called of God or that is worshipped, and this is to stand against the ways of God and his laws because you are looking at the law with eyes of flesh instead of spiritual eyes of freedom in the Jerusalem above.
Each feast day is showing a betrothed virgin secret things about the bridegroom and each feast days pertains to the wedding and the coming of the bridegroom and the things he will do for his bride. The feast of Tabernacles is a wedding procession where a woman circles a man she is getting married to but people will look at this feast and say,'' Oh, That is just something they will do in the thousand year messianic age but we are discussing things a brides should take great joy in knowing and to learn these things is to learn who the bridegroom is so that he doesn't come to you and say,'' I never knew you.''
How could Jesus look at you and tell you such a thing and why?
Are you afraid that he might tell you this?
After all, these are people who did actual miracles in Christ name, and they were out there sharing the ministry of Christ just as any teacher of Christ would and yet Jesus looks at them and says,'' I never knew you.''
Doesn't the bride know her own betrothed? Doesn't she know her own wedding day and what she is supposed to be doing in preparing for the promise of her beloved's coming? Doesn't she know the bridegroom has set and appointed visitation days given to the bride?
Saying,'' Lord, Lord,'' does not mean you know Christ even if you truly believe you know him, you know the Jewish Messiah from Jewish feasts, traditions and rituals and you are able to watch as a good servant BECAUSE you know the times and seasons, the appointed visitation days of your own beloved or how will you watch?
YOU are promised a warning before the coming promise, have you received such a warning yet, and what day will you be warned against?
Revelation 3 ~~~~ Paul said that we have no fear of Jesus coming as a thief BECAUSE Paul taught the times and seasons of appointed visitation days and THEY KNEW THEM.
Revelation 3 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
IF YOU DONT WATCH, YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE WARNING PROMISED, the same warning those first disciples were given against Pentecost is the same warning we are promised against Shemini Atzeret.
Matthew 25 ~~The servant who starved God's children and could not watch because he didn't know the master's appointed visitation days, he is cut in half dividing soul and spirit and appointed his place amongst the sinners in the court.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
But YE brethren, are not in darkness, THAT THE DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.
THAT WAS THEN
THAT WAS THEN.
If you are a Christian who does not know the comings and goings of appointed visitation days that are the times and seasons of God then God is going to come upon you as a thief breaking into your body and Paul taught his students these times and seasons so they had no fear at all of Jesus coming to them on a day that they were not aware of.
What is going to happen to you when Jesus comes to you and breaks into you like a thief breaking into a house BECAUSE you didn't know the 7 feast days of Christ?
Ya Know what happens?
A skirt is pulled up over your head if you do not know the times and seasons of God, you will be utterly ashamed, bitterly weeping at the sheer nakedness and everyone will see your nakedness, all those who know the appointed days of Jesus will be clothed and looking deep inside you and you will be exposed like a naked vile person simply because you did not know your own visitation days.
Do you really want to be exposed and found naked in this way?
Woe is the bride who doesn't know her husband and his appointed days.
Revelation 16:15
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."
Paul went out seeking virgins to betroth them to Christ, and this was something that was never seen although it is clearly behind God's intentions to add to the nation.
God's Torah is his nature and there is not a single thing new in the New testament, the law and the prophets stand and if you find anything in the New Testament, it is only for you to understand the secrets of the old Testament and still we are all under this law, there are two laws for the both of us.
There is a law for the flesh
There is a law for the spirit.
There is therefore no difference between slave and free man because ALL are slaves in this body with a law of flesh pertaining to this body, and ALL are free in the hidden man of the heart we are free.
There is therefore no difference in male or female because we ARE ALL female in this body of flesh, and all of us have a male spirit in the hidden man of the heart.
There is therefore no difference between Jew and Gentile for the same reason, God did not do away with Jew and Gentile but they are members of one body. The outer man is a gentile and there is the law for the gentile but the inner hidden man of the heart is a Jew, and there is a law of freedom for that hidden man of the heart.
You have two mothers and YOU ARE BOTH SONS.
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
How in the world does Hagar pertain to Jerusalem and how in the world is she YOUR MOTHER?
How in the world does the law pertain to Ishmael when he had NOTHING to do with the law and yet he is under the law?
YOU are the first born
YOU are the second born
You think there isn't two laws?
There is a law for the flesh with the first born in this body of death as being a slave, but thank God we have a New mother, and we have another life to live in Jerusalem as a freeman, and we are under a law of grace and mercy, but it is still the same law.
The eyes of the flesh read the law of Moses and they only see slavery or punishment but the eyes of the spirit look at see a wedding contract and a love letter to a would be bride.
Just as People are told,'' Depart from me, you breakers of the law.''
These people were willed with iniquity, with lawlessness and that is exactly what it is because if you disrespect the law, then you will never be able to see the beauty behind each law and that beauty is Christ, it is him, he is the word and knowing the truth and grace of the law is to literally know Jesus because he is in fact, the word of God.
Each person is a temple and you can stand against everything that is called of God or that is worshipped, and this is to stand against the ways of God and his laws because you are looking at the law with eyes of flesh instead of spiritual eyes of freedom in the Jerusalem above.
Each feast day is showing a betrothed virgin secret things about the bridegroom and each feast days pertains to the wedding and the coming of the bridegroom and the things he will do for his bride. The feast of Tabernacles is a wedding procession where a woman circles a man she is getting married to but people will look at this feast and say,'' Oh, That is just something they will do in the thousand year messianic age but we are discussing things a brides should take great joy in knowing and to learn these things is to learn who the bridegroom is so that he doesn't come to you and say,'' I never knew you.''
How could Jesus look at you and tell you such a thing and why?
Are you afraid that he might tell you this?
After all, these are people who did actual miracles in Christ name, and they were out there sharing the ministry of Christ just as any teacher of Christ would and yet Jesus looks at them and says,'' I never knew you.''
Doesn't the bride know her own betrothed? Doesn't she know her own wedding day and what she is supposed to be doing in preparing for the promise of her beloved's coming? Doesn't she know the bridegroom has set and appointed visitation days given to the bride?
Saying,'' Lord, Lord,'' does not mean you know Christ even if you truly believe you know him, you know the Jewish Messiah from Jewish feasts, traditions and rituals and you are able to watch as a good servant BECAUSE you know the times and seasons, the appointed visitation days of your own beloved or how will you watch?
YOU are promised a warning before the coming promise, have you received such a warning yet, and what day will you be warned against?
Revelation 3 ~~~~ Paul said that we have no fear of Jesus coming as a thief BECAUSE Paul taught the times and seasons of appointed visitation days and THEY KNEW THEM.
Revelation 3 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
IF YOU DONT WATCH, YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE WARNING PROMISED, the same warning those first disciples were given against Pentecost is the same warning we are promised against Shemini Atzeret.
Matthew 25 ~~The servant who starved God's children and could not watch because he didn't know the master's appointed visitation days, he is cut in half dividing soul and spirit and appointed his place amongst the sinners in the court.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
But YE brethren, are not in darkness, THAT THE DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.
THAT WAS THEN
THAT WAS THEN.
If you are a Christian who does not know the comings and goings of appointed visitation days that are the times and seasons of God then God is going to come upon you as a thief breaking into your body and Paul taught his students these times and seasons so they had no fear at all of Jesus coming to them on a day that they were not aware of.
What is going to happen to you when Jesus comes to you and breaks into you like a thief breaking into a house BECAUSE you didn't know the 7 feast days of Christ?
Ya Know what happens?
A skirt is pulled up over your head if you do not know the times and seasons of God, you will be utterly ashamed, bitterly weeping at the sheer nakedness and everyone will see your nakedness, all those who know the appointed days of Jesus will be clothed and looking deep inside you and you will be exposed like a naked vile person simply because you did not know your own visitation days.
Do you really want to be exposed and found naked in this way?
Woe is the bride who doesn't know her husband and his appointed days.
Revelation 16:15
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."
A biblical case can be made for both, plus annihilation, depending on one's frame of reference. It largely comes down to what one believes is true about the nature of God. And since the bible is all over the map and often in total contradiction in its descriptions of God, one will naturally gravitate toward the description with which they most resonate.
That's the "fun" thing about the bible... It goes a long way toward showing you the state of your own heart and mind.
Amen, Pleroo!! Those who are too lazy to test the Spirit of anything in the Bible accept everything and PRETEND it is all the same. That is referred to as double-minded, a necessary state of mind for fundamentalists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
It all comes down to God's unchanging nature and truth (which are not hidden), not what one believes about them. God's truth does not depend on human belief, approval or agreement.
True, but what people believe about God's true nature is what is recorded in the Bible. Only Jesus knew the mind of God which is why we sue the "mind of Christ" and agape love to know God, NOT the primitive and barbaric beliefs described in the OT.
Quote:
The Bible is absolutely NOT "all over the map and often in total contradictions in it's descriptions of God" --
God has revealed His ways, truths, plans, purpose and promises for mankind in Scripture. People trying to fit God's Word of Truth into their own views (which sound good to men) are all over the map in their views. All Scripture is inspired by God -- Who is not the author of confusion.
So you ignore the confusion and pretend it does NOT exist, very ostrich-like. QED, Pleroo. They are unreasoning in their credulity. That is why they cannot be reasoned with.
Paul went out seeking virgins to betroth them to Christ, and this was something that was never seen although it is clearly behind God's intentions to add to the nation.
God's Torah is his nature and there is not a single thing new in the New testament, the law and the prophets stand and if you find anything in the New Testament, it is only for you to understand the secrets of the old Testament and still we are all under this law, there are two laws for the both of us.
There is a law for the flesh
There is a law for the spirit.
There is therefore no difference between slave and free man because ALL are slaves in this body with a law of flesh pertaining to this body, and ALL are free in the hidden man of the heart we are free.
There is therefore no difference in male or female because we ARE ALL female in this body of flesh, and all of us have a male spirit in the hidden man of the heart.
There is therefore no difference between Jew and Gentile for the same reason, God did not do away with Jew and Gentile but they are members of one body. The outer man is a gentile and there is the law for the gentile but the inner hidden man of the heart is a Jew, and there is a law of freedom for that hidden man of the heart.
You have two mothers and YOU ARE BOTH SONS.
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
How in the world does Hagar pertain to Jerusalem and how in the world is she YOUR MOTHER?
How in the world does the law pertain to Ishmael when he had NOTHING to do with the law and yet he is under the law?
YOU are the first born
YOU are the second born
You think there isn't two laws?
There is a law for the flesh with the first born in this body of death as being a slave, but thank God we have a New mother, and we have another life to live in Jerusalem as a freeman, and we are under a law of grace and mercy, but it is still the same law.
The eyes of the flesh read the law of Moses and they only see slavery or punishment but the eyes of the spirit look at see a wedding contract and a love letter to a would be bride.
Just as People are told,'' Depart from me, you breakers of the law.''
These people were willed with iniquity, with lawlessness and that is exactly what it is because if you disrespect the law, then you will never be able to see the beauty behind each law and that beauty is Christ, it is him, he is the word and knowing the truth and grace of the law is to literally know Jesus because he is in fact, the word of God.
Each person is a temple and you can stand against everything that is called of God or that is worshipped, and this is to stand against the ways of God and his laws because you are looking at the law with eyes of flesh instead of spiritual eyes of freedom in the Jerusalem above.
Each feast day is showing a betrothed virgin secret things about the bridegroom and each feast days pertains to the wedding and the coming of the bridegroom and the things he will do for his bride. The feast of Tabernacles is a wedding procession where a woman circles a man she is getting married to but people will look at this feast and say,'' Oh, That is just something they will do in the thousand year messianic age but we are discussing things a brides should take great joy in knowing and to learn these things is to learn who the bridegroom is so that he doesn't come to you and say,'' I never knew you.''
How could Jesus look at you and tell you such a thing and why?
Are you afraid that he might tell you this?
After all, these are people who did actual miracles in Christ name, and they were out there sharing the ministry of Christ just as any teacher of Christ would and yet Jesus looks at them and says,'' I never knew you.''
Doesn't the bride know her own betrothed? Doesn't she know her own wedding day and what she is supposed to be doing in preparing for the promise of her beloved's coming? Doesn't she know the bridegroom has set and appointed visitation days given to the bride?
Saying,'' Lord, Lord,'' does not mean you know Christ even if you truly believe you know him, you know the Jewish Messiah from Jewish feasts, traditions and rituals and you are able to watch as a good servant BECAUSE you know the times and seasons, the appointed visitation days of your own beloved or how will you watch?
YOU are promised a warning before the coming promise, have you received such a warning yet, and what day will you be warned against?
Revelation 3 ~~~~ Paul said that we have no fear of Jesus coming as a thief BECAUSE Paul taught the times and seasons of appointed visitation days and THEY KNEW THEM.
Revelation 3 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
IF YOU DONT WATCH, YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE WARNING PROMISED, the same warning those first disciples were given against Pentecost is the same warning we are promised against Shemini Atzeret.
Matthew 25 ~~The servant who starved God's children and could not watch because he didn't know the master's appointed visitation days, he is cut in half dividing soul and spirit and appointed his place amongst the sinners in the court.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
But YE brethren, are not in darkness, THAT THE DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.
THAT WAS THEN
THAT WAS THEN.
If you are a Christian who does not know the comings and goings of appointed visitation days that are the times and seasons of God then God is going to come upon you as a thief breaking into your body and Paul taught his students these times and seasons so they had no fear at all of Jesus coming to them on a day that they were not aware of.
What is going to happen to you when Jesus comes to you and breaks into you like a thief breaking into a house BECAUSE you didn't know the 7 feast days of Christ?
Ya Know what happens?
A skirt is pulled up over your head if you do not know the times and seasons of God, you will be utterly ashamed, bitterly weeping at the sheer nakedness and everyone will see your nakedness, all those who know the appointed days of Jesus will be clothed and looking deep inside you and you will be exposed like a naked vile person simply because you did not know your own visitation days.
Do you really want to be exposed and found naked in this way?
Woe is the bride who doesn't know her husband and his appointed days.
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."
In regard to that last line--
Is it a LITERAL "awake" and a literal "clothed" or is it metaphorical awaken and clothed?
If literal, does this them suggest the world has been in some induced comma state and stripped naked?
If metaphorical, how is that determined just by the reading of 16:15?
Does the way one interprets 16:15 reflect on the previous verses of Revelation and make those verses LITER or metaphorical based on...?
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