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Are you saying it's not a "big deal" to you whether or not people believe in eternal torment?
I meanth that as in "not such a big deal".. like the OP did here in the first post.. paraphrasing: "not that big of a deal if Christ turns you away (in Mat.7:21)"
While actually, if you look at the fervency they are defending UR and attacking ET, you'd think they indeed do think it's a very big deal. If you think everyone is going to be fine, why not just sit back in a chair and relax? At least that way you wouldn't harm the cause of Christ like you're doing now. That last bit I mean in general towards UR's, not you pleroo.
How is it that Jesus paid the price for sin if he is not still burning for eternity? ET must be a false doctrine, but like most of the bible, it does not add up. It is just a book of man written myths.
I meanth that as in "not such a big deal".. like the OP did here in the first post.. paraphrasing: "not that big of a deal if Christ turns you away (in Mat.7:21)"
While actually, if you look at the fervency they are defending UR and attacking ET, you'd think they indeed do think it's a very big deal. If you think everyone is going to be fine, why not just sit back in a chair and relax? At least that way you wouldn't harm the cause of Christ like you're doing now. That last bit I mean in general towards UR's, not you pleroo.
OP was, of course, making a comparison between what ETers claim and what Jesus is reported to have actually said. And you are correct, that IS a "big deal" to many. They believe that the doctrine of ET is harming the "cause of Christ", because they have a different perspective on what that cause is than you do. That is why they don't sit back and relax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA
Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".
Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Actually Jesus remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".
Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Actually Jesus remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
Comments? Most appreciated. Thank you.
As all can see. Jesus is speaking to those called-Christian--this is judgement scenario. They did powerful works and the such in Jesus name, I say they truly believe they have a great love and respect for Jesus. But--- Jesus says to these( many) Get away from me you worker of iniquity( practicer of sin) I must confess, I never even knew you. Jaws will drop to the floor. Why? Because they did not listen to Jesus who taught many times--Go sin no more--he meant it. Jesus taught--FEW will find the road that leads off into life( in Gods kingdom)-- because Few actually listen to Jesus. 99% of all religion claiming to be Christian--ARENT. They do not teach what Jesus actually taught. They teach what they get paid to teach--the schools of mens dogmas. All who truly love Jesus, already knows everything that he taught, well, and apply every single teaching in their daily lives. Most have their ears tickled with--you are saved or born again, and its far from truth--and these don't bother learning all that Jesus taught.
As all can see. Jesus is speaking to those called-Christian--this is judgement scenario. They did powerful works and the such in Jesus name, I say they truly believe they have a great love and respect for Jesus. But--- Jesus says to these( many) Get away from me you worker of iniquity( practicer of sin) I must confess, I never even knew you. Jaws will drop to the floor. Why? Because they did not listen to Jesus who taught many times--Go sin no more--he meant it. Jesus taught--FEW will find the road that leads off into life( in Gods kingdom)-- because Few actually listen to Jesus. 99% of all religion claiming to be Christian--ARENT. They do not teach what Jesus actually taught. They teach what they get paid to teach--the schools of mens dogmas. All who truly love Jesus, already knows everything that he taught, well, and apply every single teaching in their daily lives. Most have their ears tickled with--you are saved or born again, and its far from truth--and these don't bother learning all that Jesus taught.
People don't know where these people are sent simply because they don't know Jesus, they don't know the temple and if you don't know the temple, you don't know the word of God, you don't know Jesus.
Those people disrespected the law and he calls them out for it, they were committing iniquities against the law and they don't even know where they are going because they still don't know Jesus because they don't know themselves.
You are a Temple and there is a whole book about what happens inside your temple and who it is to come to sit in your temple, but if the person knows nothing of the comings and goings of the Temple, he doesn't know that the Temple is only designed to shadow exactly what the afterlife is about, who goes where and for what reason and there is an outer court of weeping and gnashing of one's teeth because they were kicked out to the court having been found as a gentile and thus they deserve the court of darkness.
Jesus is the word of God, the law is a wedding contract to his bride and his bride is a Temple that knows herself, she knows the comings and goings of her own master and what she should be doing and saying on exact days because she knows how to watch the comings and goings and what is given on these appointed visitation days that the bridegroom come to his bride.
Just as Jesus says,'' You can decide not to keep the laws of Moses, you really can, and not only this, you can teach others how to disrespect the Torah and you can still be saved but you will be found as one who stands outside a city looking through a glass that you cannot cross and you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob speaking with Paul and David and Samuel while you stand in the court of darkness, you will see the lights of the true temples.
12"This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.…
From now on there shall be blood, blood in your houses, and the seas shall turn red with blood and everyone will have their fill of drinking blood saying,'' Please Lord, take this blood from me.''
How is it that Jesus paid the price for sin if he is not still burning for eternity? ET must be a false doctrine, but like most of the bible, it does not add up. It is just a book of man written myths.
This is like a student coming across the first thing in his science text which he does not understand and throwing the book down and saying science is just a bunch of nonsense.
Now I quite agree with you that contradiction you point out does not add up. But jumping to the conclusion that the Bible is what you say is your own emotional subjective reaction and does not rationally follow. Another perfectly reasonable conclusion is simply that this points to an error in understanding the text. This doctrine of substitutionary atonement is a peculiarly of western Christianity coming out of the dark ages. It is a childishly literal treatment of only ONE of the metaphors used to describe the atonement so it is a product of a rather odd sort of cherry picking which the Eastern Orthodox and early Christianity never had.
Well, I'll be. Been here for years and never noticed that. Learn something new everyday. Thanks.
Agreed, on both counts.
Mitchell, you wrote:
"But physical life comes to an end and then the rule of the external laws of nature is gone and what we have chosen is all that is left because that is what the spirit is."
My question was, on what are you basing your conclusion that the underlined is true?
What does the choosing is our consciousness (Spirit) and that is all that remains after the body dies, Pleroo.
"But physical life comes to an end and then the rule of the external laws of nature is gone and what we have chosen is all that is left because that is what the spirit is."
My question was, on what are you basing your conclusion that the underlined is true?
I realized when you showed so much interest in the link that you probably misunderstood what the link was addressing. I was addressing my own question of why I don't just throw all the religious stuff in the garbage. But then there remains the challenge of making the various claims of religion add up and make sense of it. My existentialist background probably plays some role in this, but this connection between choice and the spirit is a linchpin in the only way I can see any of it making sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
What does the choosing is our consciousness (Spirit) and that is all that remains after the body dies, Pleroo.
This is one of the many areas where MysticPhD and I come to the same general conclusion but disagree on the details. And I must admit that this suggests our difference might boil down to semantics and how we visualize all this working out.
We certainly agree there is something for which we use the word "spirit" which remains after death. But while he seems to equate this with consciousness, I do not. I think I have a more detailed complex picture of what is going on and I think it comes from the necessity of making all this conform to the objective evidence.
I see the spirit as something nonphysical which is created by our choices.
I see consciousness as the experience of the process by which this happens.
The relationship between the spiritual and physical which best agrees with the objective evidence is one that is mostly epiphenomenal -- this means the cause-effect relationship is mostly one way from the physical to the spiritual. The takes its form according to the choices made in the process of life (self-organization).
Consciousness is implicit in the very process of life itself because it requires self-maintenance and that is only possible when there is some kind of awareness of self as it is and according to same ideal of what the self should be. Now in biological life that awareness is chemical and in the life of the human mind it is by the information processing in the human nervous system.
And yet I don't think consciousness and free will are anything more than an illusion in a deterministic universe. Without an unfolding of events as a multiplicity of possibilities collapses (or decoheres) into a singularity of actuality, I don't think the universe is any different from a book or a video tape where there is no life and consciousness, but only inanimate data.
MysticPhd tends to respond to such explanations by saying he doesn't see any difference between our viewpoints, but then he equates it all with his own favorite ways of saying things. But for me the language is precise and critical because it is how I can make it all fit with the objective evidence. And that usually where we end up in conflict and frustrated with each other. And then of course, there is also the problem that we don't agree on everything and the details are important for those differences also.
The same debates continue on this forum. Repeating the same thing for years now.
If you truly believe that there is anything good that comes out of that phrase, you are truly believing a lie.
Unless you interpret "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as something positive.
Oh well the same posters saying the same things. The only one that believes it is themselves. ciao
This is not a very helpful comment because all of it is meaningless without context and you didn't give any. For example, what are you responding to? OP or the previous post? What debate are you talking about? What is the phrase you are referring to? If you are posting with any intention to communicate with other people you have to do better than this. We are practically left with the impression that your post should begin with the words "note to self."
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