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Read the book of Romans and you will soon find out that there is NO FREE WILL. Do you really think God would leave something as important as the very SALVATION of souls up to imperfect, sinful, mortals? How foolish!
I agree. I align more with the Calvinist beliefs, so this has made me interested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic
In fact, I saw no need to share it with anyone because even when I believed in ET, I still understood from reading the scriptures that God is sovereign and will not lose any whom he has given to Jesus - so I found it to be a futile thing to share the "bad news".
Universal salvation is something I've been giving thought to lately. There are some verses that seem to support it just like there are verses that seem to support a hell or place of torment. Again, I am open to the idea of universalism, but I have some questions.
- What do you make of Romans 9? Calvinists (such as myself) often focus on this chapter to show God's sovereignty. Specifically believing God elects those who go to heaven but that not all go to heaven. Some individuals are hardened & prepared for destruction (or hell.)
I've always had trouble swallowing this chapter. When I talk to others about it or research it I usually get the reply that Paul gave -- which is, who are you to answer back to God? He's the potter & you're the clay.
Romans 9:18-23
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to its moulder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
I agree. I align more with the Calvinist beliefs, so this has made me interested.
Universal salvation is something I've been giving thought to lately. There are some verses that seem to support it just like there are verses that seem to support a hell or place of torment. Again, I am open to the idea of universalism, but I have some questions.
- What do you make of Romans 9? Calvinists (such as myself) often focus on this chapter to show God's sovereignty. Specifically believing God elects those who go to heaven but that not all go to heaven. Some individuals are hardened & prepared for destruction (or hell.)
I've always had trouble swallowing this chapter. When I talk to others about it or research it I usually get the reply that Paul gave -- which is, who are you to answer back to God? He's the potter & you're the clay.
Romans 9:18-23
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to its moulder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
With a name like "everwinter", you may need to think of a name change if the full wonder of His exceeding love & grace in the Master of reconciliation grips you fully. LOL
Hopefully your questions will find consummation in Him. I know a Calvinist brother who struggled for nigh unto 10 years before what is described as "mystery" ushered him into a new day of experience.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the goats in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”
“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”
Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”
Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”
The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”
It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”
Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,
“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”
Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”
It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.
The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”
The Concordant Version (1930):
“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”
Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976
has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”
Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has
"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.
Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”
The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all.
It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”
“God is the Source, Guide & Goal of ta panta (the all)”
“From Him ta panta, through Him ta panta, in Him ta panta”
“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith (Hannah W. Smith), a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a “lost sinner” it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” -1 Cor. 15-
Swallow= katapino=
To swallow down death by victory.
(Of the mortal body by LIFE)
To drink down, to devour.
To swallow.
Jonathan Mitchell Translation=
“the death was drunk down and swallowed unto victory”
One of the most beloved and yet personally challenging teachings of Jesus is found in Luke 6
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Luke 6:35-36
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? Matt 5:46
Jesus is promising great heavenly rewards for responding in love towards those who hate us. The rational he provides is that in these moments we are most like God.
So imagine this scenario.
The saints are all in heaven and Jesus is handing out rewards and he comes to those sheep on his right and says “Here you go, here is your great reward.”
And they will say, “What is this for?”
And the king will reply “When men hated you and despised you and you loved them in return and thus you were just like my Father.”
Then they will say, “And what became of those who hated us but that we loved like the Father?”
And the king will reply, “Hm? Oh, uh…they’re all burning in hell forever and ever. But don’t you think about that, just enjoy YOUR reward for being like the Father and loving them. Run along now…”
That's a pretty serious internal conflict within the teachings of Jesus if we have been taught them correctly…which I kind of doubt.
Eternal rewards for loving those who hate us (because that's just like God) is completely incompatible with the notion that God will punish forever those who hated him. Then just to multiply the absurdity, consider that we are supposed to believe that God will punish forever those who did not hate him and never even met him.
Under what theology can you have a God who demands we love evil people just like he does…and then burns them in hell forever? If the argument is attempted that the distinction is that this is only a command pertaining to this life, then we have to ask: was Jesus asking us to do what God would do or was he telling us to be like who God is?
Jesus said that was what God was like. Jesus was not asking us to emulate a temporary costume God chose to wear for a time. He was asking us to emulate his very personhood which was and is and always will be.
This forces us to dispose of our traditional view of hell as well as to expand our concept of Gods power and desire to redeem.
Hell is not forever and even His enemies will be loved in eternity. If that is not the case then our heavenly rewards for loving our enemies become an absurdity.
Nothing is inexorable but love. Love which will yield to prayer is imperfect and poor. Nor is it then the love that yields, but its alloy. For if at the voice of entreaty love conquers displeasure, it is love asserting itself, not love yielding its claims. It is not love that grants a boon unwillingly; still less is it love that answers a prayer to the wrong and hurt of him who prays. Love is one, and love is changeless.
For love loves unto purity. Love has ever in view the absolute loveliness of that which it beholds. Where loveliness is incomplete, and love cannot love its fill of loving, it spends itself to make more lovely, that it may love more; it strives for perfection, even that itself may be perfected--not in itself, but in the object. As it was....
"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19).
Reconcile= Katallasso=
To change from enmity to friendship.
What God accomplishes through grace to former enemies.
"For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son.."
Romans 5 stresses the attitude of God's favor toward us.
He always acts according to His unchanging righteousness and lovingkindness.
Reconcile= apokatallasso=
To reconcile completely.
To change from one condition to another.
The Divine purpose=
The all (ta panta)
"Having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." -Col.1:20-
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