Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Only the Father knows who is the Christ , and only the LORD knows who is God, and God hath both the Father and the Son:
THING 1
Spoiler
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. John 8:42
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27
Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you.1 Sam 12:13
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Matt 16:20
So, we have a knowledge of what a horse is. And entire mankind agrees on that knowledge. It’s universal.
We know how it looks, how it lives etc, we also have scientific methods (knowledge) to classify a horse. We can check it’s blood group, we can see it’s DNA, bone structure, tissue etc. Again, a unanimously agreed upon knowledge base.
Now, say I bring you an animal or a specie that you have never seen before.
Say, it has five legs, one wing, 3 eyes, it eats only plastic, it can climb trees, and it’s in the size of chicken. And I claim that it’s a horse.
With our knowledge, we have build a frame of reference as to what a horse is like. It’s again, a universal knowledge where we all agree.
So you use that frame of reference on this never seen before animal, and you say, no it’s not a horse.
The argument continues, and you challenge to take this animal to a lab, take blood samples, check it’s DNA and see if it’s a horse not.
The tests may reveal that yes indeed it’s not a horse OR the lab tests could also reveal that it matched the scientific classification of a horse.
Either way you look at it, you have a frame of reference of a horse that you use. And we all agree on that frame of reference.
Now, I present you with Jesus, and say, he is God. And I provide whatever proof.
Do you have a universal frame of reference of God where the whole world agrees as to what is God? And you could use that frame of reference on Jesus to figure whether Jesus is God or not?
No you don’t !!
When we don’t even EXACTLY know, and we don’t even agree EXACTLY as to what God is, how can we use a frame of reference which does not exist, to know if Jesus is God or not?
So perhaps you can say, proof of Jesus is a CHRISTIAN God, and there is no arguement.
But when you say, Jesus is God, then you shoot yourself in the foot because 7 Billion people don’t unanmouslly agree as to what exactly God is. We don’t have a universal frame of reference of God, as we do have one for a horse.
There is no proof of God - it’s only a faith.
Those, whose logic and intuition tells them that there is a creator out there, they look for his signs and form a faith. This could be any faith that talks to their heart, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism or whatever.
And those whose logic and intuition tells them that the entire universe and everything in it, came together by itself, will reject every single proof and evidence of God that you provide them.
Cardinals mate, that was brilliant. You perfectly set out the difference between validated claims and unvalidated ones.
This touches on what i call the "Humpty fallacy"
"Words mean what i want them to mean". And we will recall the arguments with Gldnule and his selected Dictionary definitions of God. Theramin trees in a vid (don't recall which) touched on this business.
Humpty could say that "God bless you" means "punch me in the mouth" (1) but if nobody follows his meaning, he can't blame anyone but himself, and if he is feeling so very pleased at outsmarting Alice (and everyone else) it is really himself who is acting the clown.
Misunderstandings and misuse of words can happen, but if you explain what you mean, and other person listens, then misunderstanding is avoided. Those who do it deliberately to mislead, confuse or just play the smartarse, are best avoided too.
So while the Faith -claim of the Op isn't quite making that point , it is making a claim and citing the Bible in support of it, which simply moves the debate along a bit: why should we credit the claims of the Bible?
Well, that's where popular usage is not the pertinent factor, because we are in the area of verifiable facts and whether they are or not (which i suppose Trump meant by 'we'll have to disagree on the facts'). On examination, can we trust the Bible as a factual source? If not, we can't trust the OP claim.
(1) I once read a novel - one of what i call the Screwtape mythological cycle - of the Plots of a Totalitarian (2) Satan and his minions ...and set in Verse all the way through! There's some Deliah type seductress asks a Parsifal character (3) if he will serve her. So he does in the only was he knows the term - as a stallion on his farm serves a mare. It's not surprising that the author thought that doin' it to the woman whose protest would be ignored and she was effectively raped was perfectly justified as she was on the Wrong side. Interesting spotlight on the Churchgoer mindset.
(2) one image that wonderfully sticks in the mind was Satan making his speech, and all the terrified demons furiously applauding...by pressing a button so a bank of lights flashed. After gloating over the silent visual applause, he clears them all with a sweep of the satanic hand.
(3) strong, honest and a bit dumb, you know the type.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-05-2018 at 03:58 AM..
The proof is that God after the cross of Christ, God released His spirit to dwell on all the followers who by faith receive Gods spirit ... were the sacrifice of Jesus became a judgment for man to be saved by God ........., where then the release from God , the baptism of Holy Spirit is the proof that God gave a portion of His Greatness to redeemer Jesus Christ who is now in heaven .......So all believers who have Holy Spirit on their lives is the Proof ..... So if people deny that Holy Spirit is on millions of Christians than this would be a dishonor to God
Every time a Christian does what the OP has done here...merely offered bible verses to "prove" something...all they have done is proven that they have no "proof", that they don't understand what "proof" is, and that they have not even the slightest concept of what science is. And, paramount is that they are offering as "proof" something that millions of people do not believe in at all. It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with people whose thinking is so tragically limited.
Every time a Christian does what the OP has done here...merely offered bible verses to "prove" something...all they have done is proven that they have no "proof", that they don't understand what "proof" is, and that they have not even the slightest concept of what science is. And, paramount is that they are offering as "proof" something that millions of people do not believe in at all. It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with people whose thinking is so tragically limited.
I must say that although having sussed out a good deal of the 'why' of theist thinking (A priori God- belief is at the bottom of all their thinking) I find it hard to understand a mindset where what is written in a book is taken a reliable fact. i know that we are Instructed from books all the time. But they surely have a better level of validation.
But they do argue that it does. And if there is a conflict of books..."We know Hank is Always Right". And that again goes back to the a priori.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-05-2018 at 05:20 AM..
Reason: mustn't be lazy....Italicize the Latin...
Thread being moved from Religion and Spirituality to Christianity. Post prior to this on e may not comply with the posting rules for the Christianity forum.
I have no idea why a thread about Jesus wasn't put in the Christianity forum in the first place.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You perfectly set out the difference between validated claims and unvalidated ones.
