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'Known science' says one thing and the Bible says: Earth abides forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalm 104:5
By the end of Jesus' coming one-thousand year governmental reign over Earth, then righteous mankind will know more details about Earth existing forever than what 'known science ' now says.
- 1st Corinthians 15:24-26
No, it doesn't show anything of the sort. The "great crowd" may not be numbered in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that GOD doesn't have a set number in mind.
If the number was already set then there would be No need for Jesus to act as Judge at his coming Glory Time.
No point in judging what is supposedly already judged. - Matthew 25:37
Those figurative humble ' sheep ' fill in that un-numbered great un-numbered great crowd of Rev. 7:9,14 only after Jesus does the coming judging.
No, it doesn't show anything of the sort. The "great crowd" may not be numbered in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that GOD doesn't have a set number in mind.
I'm curious, Mink... Do you believe God has a set number of people He intends to save?
So, I'm assuming you don't believe in free will. Would that also be a correct statement? Could you explain the reasoning behind your conclusion? I'm genuinely curious.
So, I'm assuming you don't believe in free will. Would that also be a correct statement? Could you explain the reasoning behind your conclusion? I'm genuinely curious.
On the contrary, I DO believe in free will, and that foreknowledge is not causation.
I look at it like this: Before I had children, I KNEW they wouldn't be perfect. They would make mistakes. Get into trouble. Not ALWAYS do the right thing. I knew that they would probably experiment with drugs (to a point)...that they would probably have sex before marriage. Be influenced by their peers, etc. I knew that they would get to an age where they would start to defy me, even on purpose, just to feel autonomous; like, they didn't need 'mom' for anything anymore.
But knowing those things about them ahead of time, didn't cause them to do them. I never once said to my kids, "I KNOW you're going to experiment with drugs and have premarital sex!" They used their own free will to do what they would do. I counseled them...advised them...but I also knew ahead of time that they weren't always going to heed my instruction.
I see God in a similar likeness. God knew what each one of us would be like once we were born into this world. He knows us better than we know ourselves. While I felt confident in my 'knowing' my kids, God actually DOES know us. And because he knows us so well...
...he would also know who would come to Him and who would not.
On the contrary, I DO believe in free will, and that foreknowledge is not causation.
I look at it like this: Before I had children, I KNEW they wouldn't be perfect. They would make mistakes. Get into trouble. Not ALWAYS do the right thing. I knew that they would probably experiment with drugs (to a point)...that they would probably have sex before marriage. Be influenced by their peers, etc. I knew that they would get to an age where they would start to defy me, even on purpose, just to feel autonomous; like, they didn't need 'mom' for anything anymore.
But knowing those things about them ahead of time, didn't cause them to do them. I never once said to my kids, "I KNOW you're going to experiment with drugs and have premarital sex!" They used their own free will to do what they would do. I counseled them...advised them...but I also knew ahead of time that they weren't always going to heed my instruction.
I see God in a similar likeness. God knew what each one of us would be like once we were born into this world. He knows us better than we know ourselves. While I felt confident in my 'knowing' my kids, God actually DOES know us. And because he knows us so well...
...he would also know who would come to Him and who would not.
The salient difference being, we all 'knew' those things about our children - but lacking omnipotence, we are virtually powerless to stop them from killing themselves with drugs, for example.
This god presumably is omnipotent, and therefore has the ability to stop your kid from injecting heroin. This is an ancient problem that Christianity can not resolve. A god that watches the rape of a child by clergy and does nothing. I suppose the raped child should be satisfied knowing that this god will punish the rapist at some point. Not really morally inspiring....
A god that watches the rape of a child by clergy and does nothing. I suppose the raped child should be satisfied knowing that this god will punish the rapist at some point.
At what point do you think God should step in and prevent people from doing harm to each other? Should He zap schoolyard bullies or just clergy?
At what point do you think God should step in and prevent people from doing harm to each other? Should He zap schoolyard bullies or just clergy?
Exactly. Free will (I prefer the term 'volition') wouldn't be free if God didn't allow it to function. While God may, and does, step in at times (he won't allow human volition to cause human extinction for instance, or may not allow a person to murder a particular person for whom he has a purpose) God must generally allow human volition to function for it to be real.
The salient difference being, we all 'knew' those things about our children - but lacking omnipotence, we are virtually powerless to stop them from killing themselves with drugs, for example.
It depends. Some parents will drag their child, kicking and screaming to rehab...only for the kid to get clean, and thank their parents later on.
God's not going to interfere with free will.
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This god presumably is omnipotent, and therefore has the ability to stop your kid from injecting heroin.
That's right. God is omnipotent. He's also omniscient. Having the ability or the power is useless without knowledge/wisdom.
I have the ability to do my kid's homework for them so they get straight A's in school. But I have the wisdom NOT to.
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This is an ancient problem that Christianity can not resolve.
I think C.S. Lewis 'solved' it quite nicely.
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A god that watches the rape of a child by clergy and does nothing. I suppose the raped child should be satisfied knowing that this god will punish the rapist at some point. Not really morally inspiring....
Or, that the child is with God, reaping all the benefits of heaven, feeling incredible peace, joy and happiness. No sadness, no pain.
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