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In the Old Testament, there are repeated instances where the people of Isreal and Judah en mass grossly sinned and as a loving father to his children God hands out some punishment - war, severe weather, famine, and so on. If the Bible is the guide book to life, why do people including some Christians in our so called post Christian culture (according to some pastors) have problems with this theme repeating itself today in history in our society?
I think its the lack of understanding of the covenant (to stay holy, righteousness through sacrifice and judgement) that came through Moses and lack of understanding of Paul's description of what was nailed to the cross (righteousness through sacrifice), and the judgement that was pushed to the future.
Or lack of understanding the OT itself. Some don't believe that the Father cannot have the characters of the Son while Jesus said this, John 14:8-9
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need.” Jesus answered, “I have been with you a long time now. Do you still not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
This as well, I assume. Some believe God is holy, which is true, so he cannot punish. He doesn't want to, but the bible does say that only the rebels are given away to their sin, not the righteous.
In the Old Testament, there are repeated instances where the people of Isreal and Judah en mass grossly sinned and as a loving father to his children God hands out some punishment - war, severe weather, famine, and so on. If the Bible is the guide book to life, why do people including some Christians in our so called post Christian culture (according to some pastors) have problems with this theme repeating itself today in history in our society?
Remember that with the whole punishment and restoration motif, we are (already) reading an INTERPRETATION of events. It flows from the recognition of an all-powerful God. So, He must be in control, and scolds us when we need it. Then we are fixed somehow, and renewed.
Deep down, it is an expression of faith and trust in the Loyalty and Faithfulness of God toward his own. He created us, after all. I dunno how many people actually drill-down to catch that particular point.
Life happens. People do stuff, make choices. Some people look like winners, and there are always way more victims. God did not do that. But God PERMITS it, because God takes us seriously. These days, the church, generally speaking has lost its potency. We must reclaim our sense of grief about living in a culture foreign to the gospel: Consumerism. Instead, we fit ourselves into it and have begun to think like good little capitalists who also happen to claim to believe in Jesus. In other words: we are Americans who happen to be Christian after a fashion, rather than CHRISTIANS who happen to be Americans or Europeans or from somewhere else.
I don't even think the newness that God is capable of for our sakes gets much credit in the hearts and minds of believers anymore. But WE must start to think and talk like the EXILES that we are. We have buried our very identity. We must get back to God's Alternative Vision for us AND everyone else.
Remember that with the whole punishment and restoration motif, we are (already) reading an INTERPRETATION of events. It flows from the recognition of an all-powerful God. So, He must be in control, and scolds us when we need it.
Well, I begin with this: what is written in the OT is an interpretation of events.
History is always written by the winners to justify their behavior. Much like how we justify our carpet bombing of Germany after WWII.
1. Jesus' birth and life created a crisis in Judaism with the widespread conversion of Jews.
Quote:
Acts 8
And Saul approved of their killing him.
The Church Persecuted and Scattered
1 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.
2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.
3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
We tend to think the Romans killing Christians in the Colosseum with lions, but as St. Paul states Jews killed Christians too.
Even today:
Quote:
But for the small Christian minority living in Israel, spitting may be the least of their concerns. So far in 2023, there have been dozens of attacks by extremist Jews on Christians or Christian sites, ranging from the merely unpleasant to vandalism and assault.
“Definitely there has been an increase—in the last year, a very high increase—in all types of violence, spitting, attacks on sites, provocations,” Farid Jubran, general counsel of the Catholic Church's Custody of the Holy Land, told The Media Line.
Pope speaks out after IDF sniper kills two women inside Gaza church, per Catholic authorities
Pope Francis on Sunday addressed the deaths at the Holy Family Parish, lamenting that “unarmed civilians are targets for bombs and gunfire” in Gaza and invoking scripture on war.
“I continue receiving very serious and sad news about Gaza. Unarmed civilians are targets for bombs and gunfire. And this has happened even within the parish complex of the Holy Family, where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, sisters,” he said during his weekly Angelus prayer.
“Some are saying, ‘This is terrorism and war.’ Yes, it is war, it is terrorism. That is why Scripture says that ‘God puts an end to war… the bow he breaks and the spear he snaps,’” the Pope continued.
How do you know God approved of this battle?. If God convert Saul into St. Paul, then Jews persecution of Christians was not God's will, right?
So how do you know God's approves of you & you've NOT been tricked by the devil
There line of thinking - Judas knew Jesus and saw His miracles. Yet Judas still betrayed him. As we are so much further removed from Jesus' time, how much easier are we tricked into betraying Jesus?
Look at Iraq, we went into the Iraq War (2003–2011) based on false information. President Bush citing “Gog and Magog” and the Book of Revelations. He used a messianic vision that United States was doing God’s will to eliminate evil and to promote democracy. So we attacked a country, caused 109,032 deaths, unstabilized the Middle East which allowed ISIS to form. And, for what? A false premise that we were on God's side and there were weapons of mass destruction.
You know fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Right now —
Quote:
The corruption trial of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu restarted Monday after a two month pause that followed the state of emergency declared after the October 7 Hamas attacks.
Israeli Minister of Justice Yaris Levin lifted the state of emergency effective December 1.
Netanyahu’s corruption trial first began in January 2020, making him the first sitting Israeli prime minister to appear in court as a defendant, on trial for charges of fraud, breach of trust and bribery. He denies any wrongdoing.
The prime minister faces charges in three separate cases.
In the most serious case, Case 4000, he is charged with bribery, fraud and breach of trust for allegedly advancing regulatory benefits worth the equivalent of more than $250 million at the time to his friend Shaul Elovitch, who was the controlling shareholder for the telecommunications company Bezeq.
In a very real way, Netanyahu needs to the war to drag on for political cover. He's supported by the far right - the Messiah Jews looking to wipe Islam and Christianity from Israel in order to recreate ancient Israel for the return of their Messiah - not Jesus! In order to achieve this - Gaza with its large numbers of Muslims and Christians needs be killed - genocide.
Didn't Jesus' birth change ANYTHING? Do we march on as if Jesus never existed?
Why only focus on justifying war? Why not a complete return the OT?
Why not stone women for adultery? Why should women have voting rights, when women were little more than chattel in the OT? Why not go back to arranged marriages. There was slavery in the OT, should we have slaves?
Come on, no cherrypicking the OT!
Last edited by YorktownGal; 01-12-2024 at 09:32 PM..
Yorktowngal, Was only a woman stoned for adultery? Absolutely not! Even the man was supposed to be stoned, see Leviticus 20:10. It's called justice, equal justice, just how a murders were stoned (ancient) or were hanged (our own past) or put in prison (today). What you're talking about is prostitution. Please understand that the LAW is supposed to keep the land holy. As Christ followers, the whole earth or the societies we live, holy.
Quote:
Leviticus 19:29, Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.
Overall, you did not understand what the law is about. God gave the law to KEEP justice so EVIL wouldn't exist in the Holy Land. It is repeated many time in OT. But people did not follow righteousness, and God stopped protecting them, so WAR exists. OT is about bringing that justice back so evil will not exist. That's why the return of Jesus is crucial as no one keeps God's earth holy without evil.
What people do in terms of misusing the LAW is a different story, ethical cleansing and etc. All that you wrote. God is not responsible for that! It is mans selfish behavior.
from OP: ...have problems with this theme repeating itself today in history in our society?
Is it talking about over ALL the earth? I believe OP is talking about over all the earth, in our own society, not just the Middle East. Even in our own lives, in my own lives how God is correcting. As Christ followers, the whole earth or the societies we live, we need to keep it holy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
Didn't Jesus' birth change ANYTHING? Do we march on as if Jesus never existed?
We try, but we also need him to come back. We all are groaning. Not just Christ followers, ALL LIFE (man and animal) is groaning!
Quote:
Leviticus 20:10.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—the wife, say, of his neighbor—both the man and the woman, the adulterer and adulteress, must be put to death.
How do you know God approved of this battle?. If God convert Saul into St. Paul, then Jews persecution of Christians was not God's will, right?
So how do you know God's approves of you & you've NOT been tricked by the devil
There line of thinking - Judas knew Jesus and saw His miracles. Yet Judas still betrayed him. As we are so much further removed from Jesus' time, how much easier are we tricked into betraying Jesus?
Look at Iraq, we went into the Iraq War (2003–2011) based on false information. President Bush citing “Gog and Magog” and the Book of Revelations. He used a messianic vision that United States was doing God’s will to eliminate evil and to promote democracy. So we attacked a country, caused 109,032 deaths, unstabilized the Middle East which allowed ISIS to form. And, for what? A false premise that we were on God's side and there were weapons of mass destruction.
You know fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
In a very real way, Netanyahu needs to the war to drag on for political cover. He's supported by the far right - the Messiah Jews looking to wipe Islam and Christianity from Israel in order to recreate ancient Israel for the return of their Messiah - not Jesus! In order to achieve this - Gaza with its large numbers of Muslims and Christians needs be killed - genocide.
Didn't Jesus' birth change ANYTHING? Do we march on as if Jesus never existed?
Why only focus on justifying war? Why not a complete return the OT?
Why not stone women for adultery? Why should women have voting rights, when women were little more than chattel in the OT? Why not go back to arranged marriages. There was slavery in the OT, should we have slaves?
Come on, no cherrypicking the OT!
I am compelled to say that I do not follow your non-sequiturs.
In the Old Testament, there are repeated instances where the people of Isreal and Judah en mass grossly sinned and as a loving father to his children God hands out some punishment - war, severe weather, famine, and so on. If the Bible is the guide book to life, why do people including some Christians in our so called post Christian culture (according to some pastors) have problems with this theme repeating itself today in history in our society?
I may be answering a question with a question, but why do those parts of the bible fascinate you so? Those that are least Christlike?
God does have prophets today that God tell of wars and hardship which is indirectly asked His children to pray for peace and victory in the right will of God ........ but some ignore His call with prophets and complain later........ I don't see it is a post Christian time, but more of a post-modern era, as many people will come running back to God in all hard times......
Remember that with the whole punishment and restoration motif, we are (already) reading an INTERPRETATION of events. It flows from the recognition of an all-powerful God. So, He must be in control, and scolds us when we need it. Then we are fixed somehow, and renewed.
Deep down, it is an expression of faith and trust in the Loyalty and Faithfulness of God toward his own. He created us, after all. I dunno how many people actually drill-down to catch that particular point.
Life happens. People do stuff, make choices. Some people look like winners, and there are always way more victims. God did not do that. But God PERMITS it, because God takes us seriously. These days, the church, generally speaking has lost its potency. We must reclaim our sense of grief about living in a culture foreign to the gospel: Consumerism. Instead, we fit ourselves into it and have begun to think like good little capitalists who also happen to claim to believe in Jesus. In other words: we are Americans who happen to be Christian after a fashion, rather than CHRISTIANS who happen to be Americans or Europeans or from somewhere else.
I don't even think the newness that God is capable of for our sakes gets much credit in the hearts and minds of believers anymore. But WE must start to think and talk like the EXILES that we are. We have buried our very identity. We must get back to God's Alternative Vision for us AND everyone else.
Really appreciate the responses, but question in my mind is history in an Old Testament sense repeating itself in today's times? Take events such as the 9/11/2001 terrorist plane bombings, the 1/6/2021 Capitol insurrection, hurricanes, invasion from the southern border, the quality of education gone down in many schools where promoting homosexuality rather than the Ten Commandments and prayer, and the list goes on to events localized to certain cities and communities. Though God provides us many blessings, but believing God also permits or allows these events and the punishment and restoration theme is missed by many, even in the Christian community. Your individual take on this theme/motif in today's times as a follower of Jesus Christ?
Last edited by sprklcl; 01-13-2024 at 05:52 AM..
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