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I grew up in a highly-respected Christian family, one where the motto "spare the rod and spoil the child' was often acted on.
I believe this sour bit of parental guidance comes from somewhere in the bible - does this qualify as child abuse?
Once, when my father lost his temper with me, I was left striped with black and blue welts from my shoulders to my calves (I was about 11 at the time). My mother was very concerned that I should not strip for games at school for a few weeks after that lest my condition be spotted, not until the bruised had healed, anyway.
So acting on Biblical advice when bringing up children is obviously fraught with danger - beating children is never a good thing - but in this case it actually led to breaking the law of the land.
Years later, my elder sister, by then a social-worker and ex-nurse, referred to the incident, which she had witnessed and never forgotten, when nursing my mother in her final illness. My mother's reaction was strange - could the authorities still turn up to question her, she worried! (she was 91).
Yet, in the small law-abiding village where I grew up, where my father was a devout and popular lay-preacher, this small tragedy went unnoticed, although my treatment was rather more extreme than was common.
Strange to think that my God-fearing parents would, these days, have a criminal record for child abuse, but they could always blame the bible for it, I suppose...
Forgiveness? that word has no meaning for me.
brianrees,
I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of the pain and still have these memories. I can relate to your story on so many levels.
I was a victim of abuse when I was a child - from a prominent family - forced to leave home at a very young age to escape it.
Luckily for me, my abuser was at least not calling himself a "minister". That didn't stop me from being angry at and from blaming God for many years because He allowed me to be abused but I'm sure it made it much easier for me to separate the two.
I have no idea what all happened to you but I can tell you that for me to have "forgiven" my mother and my step father and even to have "witnessed" to both of them was a miracle of God's grace. I wish I could tell you that after that "we all lived happily ever after"... but that would not be true. On my mother's death bed the Lord gave me the opportunity to tell her that I forgave her -- I released her from all of the guilt that she had carried for all of those years.
I can tell you that we forgive those people who've hurt us -- not because they deserve it -- but so that we can receive God's love in our lives.
As long as we carry around that pain from our childhood, it effects how we relate to others in all areas of our lives.
We must forgive so that we can love and so we won't destroy the ones who love us with the bitterness in our hearts...
God did not want those things to happen to you. It was not His will. That is NOT what the Word of God meant in that verse.
If you ever give Him a chance to show Himself to you, I know you are going to be amazed at His love.... and His goodness.
God wants to be the Loving Father that you never knew.
God bless you,
WC
Last edited by World Citizen; 10-20-2008 at 12:08 AM..
not sure the motive of the OP in this topic but the reason there is not extensive information about pedophiles aka pagan practices in judeo christian bible is that they really were not trying to promote pagan practices. if you wana look at roman and greece practice of pedaphile info is extensive on the web on google. christianity in its primative state is an asthetic religion opposed to fleshly endeavors in any form. the entire hedonist belief system in the roman and greek and in our own modern american was opposed to christianity.
christianity in its primative state is an asthetic religion opposed to fleshly endeavors in any form. the entire hedonist belief system in the roman and greek and in our own modern american was opposed to christianity.
I think you mean to (wrongly) use the word "ascetic" above rather than "asthetic." The Bible teaches the unity of spirit, soul and body, but has a heirarchy of spirit ruling over the body through changing the soul. Those trained in Greek and Roman Rhetoric took positions as paid Priests in the religious system Constantine helped form in the early to mid 300's. They brought in a duality that came from pagan philosophy. Asceticism and hedonism are both typical of that philosophy and were aspects of more developed Gnosticism, a contender with early Christianity. For about 300 years there was a religion in the earth that had no temples, no priests, no sacred objects. We were the temple, we all were priests and God alone was to be worshipped.
An example to bear this out follows. Pay attention to vs.23:
Colossians 2:20-23...
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of the pain and still have these memories. I can relate to your story on so many levels.
Thanks also to STUDEDUDE, who wrote:
[quote]
Quote:
I am sorry you had such a trumatic experience as a child. It will probably surprise you to know "Spare the rod and spoil the child", is NOT a Bible passage. I believe what you are referring to is
Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Please note the phrase "careful to discipline him". The word careful not only precludes abuse it also involves timing. Do not discipline when you are angry or in front of peers. There is a proper time and place. In private, after you have calmed down. There is a world of difference between abuse and discipline. There is a lot more on this subject but it will become a 45 min sermon. I'll save that for church.
This is the first time I have written of that particular experience, which happened well over 40 years ago. I stand corrected re. my rather inaccurate quotation from the Bible, so thanks for posting the true reading, and also for the kind sentiments you both express - much appreciated.
Not wishing to revel in such negative memories, I did not paint a picture of the rather difficult context in which this episode occurred: suffice to say that those years were traumatic ones for a sensitive young boy, whose 'difference' led to a month in hospital (and an emergency operation) after an unprovoked attack by school bullies at the age of 12. No one was even taken to account for that, either.
Quote:
I have no idea what all happened to you but I can tell you that for me to have "forgiven" my mother and my step father and even to have "witnessed" to both of them was a miracle of God's grace. I wish I could tell you that after that "we all lived happily ever after"... but that would not be true. On my mother's death bed the Lord gave me the opportunity to tell her that I forgave her -- I released her from all of the guilt that she had carried for all of those years.
I can tell you that we forgive those people who've hurt us -- not because they deserve it -- but so that we can receive God's love in our lives.
As long as we carry around that pain from our childhood, it effects how we relate to others in all areas of our lives.
We must forgive so that we can love and so we won't destroy the ones who love us with the bitterness in our hearts...
God did not want those things to happen to you. It was not His will. That is NOT what the Word of God meant in that verse.
If you ever give Him a chance to show Himself to you, I know you are going to be amazed at His love.... and His goodness.
God wants to be the Loving Father that you never knew.
Much to ponder here, WORLD CITIZEN:
Sadly, my mother departed this world still in a rather belligerent frame of mind, as she had always considered herself above reproach. There was, therefore, no question of forgiveness on either side, simply because she didn't see herself in need of such.
Needless to say, I loved her enough to forgive her anything, but the opportunity to say so has now gone for ever, although I believe you may want to assure me otherwise.
This isn't a comfortable place to be, because there was much I admired in my parents - times were hard, and at least they sacrificed a lot to give us five children the best possible education. Things were harsh by modern standards, of course, but had my parents been able to express some love things might have been quite bearable.
At least we have the consolation, as their children, of having done our best for both parents in their declining years.
But the fact remains: deep down there is still hurt and resentment - a bitterness that some have told me has irreparably poisoned my attitude to Christianity. I hope this is not the case, not least because I have continued to study the origins and development of Christianity all my life. So much so that all my books on the subject are now a problem to house!
I like to think I am still open-minded, but at this stage of my life I can't say in honesty that I will ever find my way back to any organised religion - the obstacles are too many and insurmountable. Luckily, I don't think I am a bitter person - rather the reverse according to my friends - and I have a healthy respect for ALL belief, providing it doesn't cause its followers to judge and condemn what that don't understand. Clearly this doesn't apply to your more humane attitude, and I am thankful for that.
And that, Sirs, is, for better or worse, my present position on this forum.
Your words are much appreciated --- Brian.
Last edited by brianrees; 10-20-2008 at 06:35 AM..
Reason: important afterthought.
I was curious is sexual abuse of a child against The Bible?
I know people get enraged and point fingers at homosexuals but was there anything about sexual perversions regarding children or pedophiles, it seems to go vastly ignored with Christianity. You don't hear much shaming about that, but you hear a lot of shaming and belittling of homosexuals. Your thoughts on that.....
Actually in the Old Testament, the punishment for pedophiles was death and what exactly is child abuse by the world's standards today?
I grew up in a highly-respected Christian family, one where the motto "spare the rod and spoil the child' was often acted on. So acting on Biblical advice when bringing up children is obviously fraught with danger - beating children is never a good thing - but in this case it actually led to breaking the law of the land.
Dude I am sorry what happened to you but I grew up with a father who was a strict minister and I have probably been beaten (spanked) 5 times in my life by a belt (6 lashes each time). I am still alive and no mental stress over past memories-Physical discipline may well save them from death. Your father either used the bible as an excuse for his abuse or he did not have a right understanding of discipline in the sciptures.
There is nothing wrong with hitting (spanking) your child as long its within the proper guidelines which the bible does call for an appropriate and restrained physical discipline of children is a good thing, and contribute to the well-being and correct upbringing of the child. Too agressive is bad but the other extreme of no spanking at all is worse, that's why we have so many unruly children running around shooting people in our schools today.
(Ephesians 6:4)
4 "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."
There is nothing wrong with hitting (spanking) your child as long its within the proper guidelines which the bible does call for an appropriate and restrained physical discipline of children is a good thing, and contribute to the well-being and correct upbringing of the child. Too agressive is bad but the other extreme of no spanking at all is worse, that's why we have so many unruly children running around shooting people in our schools today.
(Ephesians 6:4)
4 "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."
Reformed Liberal:
Your words are appreciated, my friend.
I have never come across this brilliant quote before - I didn't even know this verse existed, so thanks for drawing it to my attention.
I haven't any children of my own, which is something I sometimes regret. However, I love, and am loved by, several nieces and nephews, my four siblings having all married and been blessed with children. NONE of them have ever been spanked, however, as I know to my certain knowledge, all of us being the survivors of excessive physical punishment in our own childhood.
This may surprise you a little, but I'm happy to say that every single one of these youngsters have turned out exceptionally well, both as people and academically. I know this sounds smug, and that not all children are so easy to live with, but there were undoubtedly times when each would have 'deserved' some chastisement according to the pro-smacking lobby.
Simmilarly, I like to think that had I become a father, my own memories of how terrible it feels to be beaten (and not just the physical pain) - would stay my hand in good time, and deal with the problem in some other, less brutal way.
Some youngsters, as we see in the news all too often, have gone badly astray, especially in countries where guns are freely available. And not having been brought up in a drug and violence-crazed community, I am at a loss to understand just what is going on in the world right now.
No easy answers, I admit, but all I want to say is - violence breeds violence, and even when punishment is meted out in a loving home, no matter how restrained, it is still a form of violence against those weaker than ourselves.
Please don't take this as a personal criticism of your chosen methods of correcting your children, I'm sure there is enough love in your family home to cushion the worst of any negative results that may arise - but you simply can't be sure of this. Memories are often suppressed, and have an uncomfortable way of re-surfacing later in life, as my sisters have found.
That is all I feel qualified to say, and you will no doubt appreciate a different point of view, well-meant.
So was talking back to your mom and dad. I guess a lot of families were executed back in the days.
Hasn't anyone ever told you the truth about this? You could read the Bible for yourself. The law in ancient Israel concerned an adult son, which means he had to be over 30, though some make it a decade, sometimes even two, older. If he refused to do any work, just consuming his elderly parents substance, all the while abusing them, he could be stoned to death by the leaders of that city area.
As well, there were no age laws for marriage contracts, though there are references to coming of age, which seems to have been biological maturation. But those found in homosexual acts were to be taken outside the city and stoned. It didn't matter what either of their ages were. The unspoken thing here is that it would've been very important to not be discovered. This accentuates the point that it was most importantly a societal destruction and not as much personal. Of course there were times according to the Biblical record when "the sodomite was in the land." It seems they weren't always so careful to follow this and many other rules.
Yet, unlike any other developed ancient society we know of, they had no jails, women were honored and most of the males at least could read. The only civil government was the elders in the gate that functioned as judges. Apparantly they we paid by the ones they judged unless it was done voluntarily. They had a tithe off of the increase (10% of profits) of the land only (crops, honey, wine, flocks and herd, etc. only,) not received from any trades. This supported the teaching of children mostly and 1/3 of it went to the poor, unlike any of the other nations, which was part of the glory of the God of Israel. Just compare this to our own country in today.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-21-2008 at 01:23 AM..
I think you mean to (wrongly) use the word "ascetic" above rather than "asthetic." The Bible teaches the unity of spirit, soul and body, but has a heirarchy of spirit ruling over the body through changing the soul. Those trained in Greek and Roman Rhetoric took positions as paid Priests in the religious system Constantine helped form in the early to mid 300's. They brought in a duality that came from pagan philosophy. Asceticism and hedonism are both typical of that philosophy and were aspects of more developed Gnosticism, a contender with early Christianity. For about 300 years there was a religion in the earth that had no temples, no priests, no sacred objects. We were the temple, we all were priests and God alone was to be worshipped.
An example to bear this out follows. Pay attention to vs.23:
Colossians 2:20-23...
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
This is anti-ascetic!
you have identified a spelling error and listed some quotations but the point of my post was they were not hedonistic and turned away from the body in all aspects. sex was not on the agenda.
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after the commandments and doctrines of men? 
