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It seems there is either a lot of confusion about this issue, or else a lot of rebellion.
The word which is translated "obey" is hupakouo...to harken submissively...
The word "obey" is first used ( in tne NT), in Matt. 8.27 So the men marveled, saying," Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" ( This is also in Mark 4.41, and Luke 8.25)
I am usingtheNKJV.
In Mark 1.27 We read that even the "unclean spirits" obey Him.
In the Book of Acts, " A great many of the priests were obedient to the faith." (Acts 6.7)
In Romans 1.5 Through Him we recieved grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
In Romans2.8 but to those who are selfseeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
How about Romans 6.16 ? Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
And Romans 6.17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves to sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Again...Romans 16.19 For your obedience has become known to all.
And Romans 16.26 ..now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
There are lots more on through the NT, and many are much more powerful than these. What is there to not understand about the necessity of obedience to the teachings of, and about, Jesus the Christ?
Except that no one, even after they turn their lives over to Christ, can keep all the commandments and not sin. We take this journey one day at a time. We trust the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us. We trust Christ as our saviour and God the father to work out His plan. But we are not perfect or can we ever be. We fall, repent, ask forgiveness and move forward again. As I posted before we never arrive! We will never have it all together. I think that helps us understand God's grace as we see he forgives us, over and over, and still loves us. Our flesh is weak. I also think as we struggle in areas and God gives us victory that we can be a witness to others.
I for one, am so thankful God didn't leave examples for us in the Bible of perfect people that we could never live up to. God's grace sure covers a lot.
Except that no one, even after they turn their lives over to Christ, can keep all the commandments and not sin. We take this journey one day at a time. We trust the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us. We trust Christ as our saviour and God the father to work out His plan. But we are not perfect or can we ever be. We fall, repent, ask forgiveness and move forward again. As I posted before we never arrive! We will never have it all together. I think that helps us understand God's grace as we see he forgives us, over and over, and still loves us. Our flesh is weak. I also think as we struggle in areas and God gives us victory that we can be a witness to others.
I for one, am so thankful God didn't leave examples for us in the Bible of perfect people that we could never live up to. God's grace sure covers a lot.
We are imperfect. We can only do our best. But once we know his commands, we owe it to him to try to follow them. Just like Abraham, Moses, David, and Daniel. Everyone falls short but if you repent for your sins and continue to make the effort, then you are heeding the counsel from the scriptures.
Do you mean obedience vs. faith only, as you wrote?
Or something else.
Because if it's either one or the other, I have to go with faith.
Don't you mean that faith in Christ should lead to obedience?
Do you believe obedience has saving power?
Alpha, my title is " Obedience versus faithonly" . I guess I should have put 'faith only 'this way : "faith only" ?????
Or " Obedience versus faith only "???
Or 'Obedience' versus 'faith only'......
It is the "faith only" that I have a problem with. There is no scripture that says we are saved by faithonly ! Or should I say," faith alone" ?
We are obedient because we have faith, and our faith leads to obedience. It is like the old song about Love and marriage...it goes together like a horse and carriage.
You cannot please God without faith, and you cannot please Him without being obedient to His doctrine. That obedience includes the dreaded word: baptism !
( If I had abreviated "versus" would it have been more understandable?
Versus is the correct word, despite the fact that a lot of people think it is "verses" . 'Verses' is synonymous with 'sentences'. )
Absolutely I believe obedience to the doctrine of Christ has saving power. If it doesn't , both Christ and the apostles wasted a lot of time talking about it!
Alpha, my title is " Obedience versus faithonly" . I guess I should have put 'faith only 'this way : "faith only" ?????
Or " Obedience versus faith only "???
Or 'Obedience' versus 'faith only'......
No I didn't mean to abbreviate, I meant did you mean to draw such a hard distiction between obedience and faith alone as in one or the other but not both. Your OP reads like you expect folks to take one or the other and I don't think either is accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark
It is the "faith only" that I have a problem with. There is no scripture that says we are saved by faithonly ! Or should I say," faith alone" ?
How do you interpret Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Are we saved by grace through faith? If so, obedience becomes a work and if not, then there is error in Eph 2:8.
I'm not opposed to obedience but it is a fruit of our love for God, not something that saves us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark
We are obedient because we have faith, and our faith leads to obedience. It is like the old song about Love and marriage...it goes together like a horse and carriage.
You cannot please God without faith, and you cannot please Him without being obedient to His doctrine. That obedience includes the dreaded word: baptism !
I'm not sure why the word 'baptism' is considered 'dreaded', but whatever.
Your song analogy actually confirms the point I am trying to make. You have love and build a marriage, where love is the foundation that establishes the relationship. Likewise, you have faith and build obedience where faith is the foundation that establishes our relationship to God.
Do you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark
Absolutely I believe obedience to the doctrine of Christ has saving power. If it doesn't , both Christ and the apostles wasted a lot of time talking about it!
I understand. I just disagree that obedience saves. Salvation, in my view, was bought and paid for COMPLETELY on the cross by Jesus' blood. My obedience to Him and His teachings is the fruit that I 'really' believe, but it does not save me.
I do not think Eph 2.8 cancels out "Faith without works is dead". No one scripture cancels out another. Besides, obedience to the doctrine of Christ is not 'works'...it is obedience!
It is absolutely by God's grace that we are saved, but His grace is recieved by our obedience to His will. There is no act of obedience that can cancel out His grace. He gives His grace because of our faith and obedience. There is a scripture that says 'faith' is a work. I can find it if need be....
Some have even gone even farther and said all will be saved whether they believe or not!
I know I will be saced since I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit ae evvidenced by speaking in tiongues. www.howtoheal.org
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