Do We Really Have A Sin "Nature"? (crucified, church, faith)

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

The problem we have that Adam did not is that we are humans without the Spirit or Life of God - we gravitate towards sin (this is what should be meant by sin nature) - we cannot chose LIFE unless God stepped down and gave us this LIFE in the person and work of Christ. Hence that choice will justify us before God and then we will recieve the Spirit of LIFE once again in order to do righteousenness. I might add not to gain salvation but to glorify God.

We overlook the fact that the choice was God's (to create the waster to destroy), not Adam's. The Fall was a divine set up, if you will.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

And Adam had that ability without a sin nature.

How did Adam sin without a sin nature? You say Satan. Well Satan tempted him - but Satan also tempted Jesus - and you say that He does not have a sin nature. If Adam did not how could he sin? The answer is simple the fact that Adam was created with free will allowed him to sin - this is just part of human nature. Satan gave him the choice and Adam chose foolishly. Nothing needs to be added after the fall. The only thing that changed was the removal of God's Life and Spirit. We are then born into this state with the penalty of Adams sin - Death. This is part of God's wisdom so that all who will trust Messiah can be justified by one man act of obediance just like they were condemmed by one mans act of disobedience. LIFE and DEATH are the contrast in Scripture particularly in John's gospel.

The problem we have that Adam did not is that we are humans without the Spirit or Life of God - we gravitate towards sin (this is what should be meant by sin nature) - we cannot chose LIFE unless God stepped down and gave us this LIFE in the person and work of Christ. Hence that choice will justify us before God and then we will recieve the Spirit of LIFE once again in order to do righteousenness. I might add not to gain salvation but to glorify God.

Jesus is God, nough said. God can't sin, even if he was tempted but man can and did.

"If Adam did not how could he sin?"

That's why he had to be tempted by Satan, again I ask, why would Satan tempt them in the garden, why did he not just wait for the fall? Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden. He gave them the same temptation, to be like God.

Why Go after Adam, why not just go after Adams sons or their sons?

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Jesus is God, nough said. God can't sin, even if he was tempted but man can and did.
That's why he had to be tempted by Satan, again I ask, why would Satan tempt them in the garden, why did he not just wait for the fall? Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden. He gave them the same temptation, to be like God.

Why Go after Adam, why not just go after Adams sons or their sons?

Actually to know a sinner, one needs go no farther than to look in the mirror. Why blame the devil, or Adam? Why not just blame Him who gave us the nature? Who did Adam blame? God of course!!

We are all either a bunch of Adams, or a bunch of Jesus's. Just depends on what tree you eat off of. Or what woman in the wilderness you are,,a virgin, or a harlot. Or what father you have, Yahweh, or the devil. These can go on and on...

In other words, what nature YOU choose to dwell in. Carnal, or Spiritual.

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Jesus is God, nough said. God can't sin, even if he was tempted but man can and did.
That's why he had to be tempted by Satan, again I ask, why would Satan tempt them in the garden, why did he not just wait for the fall? Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden. He gave them the same temptation, to be like God.

Why Go after Adam, why not just go after Adams sons or their sons?

'Man can and did' - So you believe Adam did not need a sin nature to sin. Congrats. You agree with me.

'Why did Satan...?' This has nothing to do with a sin nature. The why of Satan is irrelevant to this. As to the sons issue once again irrelevant. But to answer your question it was God's creation and the authority given to Adam that provoked Satan as well as Satan's desire to be like the Most High - he wanted God's creation to heed him.

There was no knowledge of evil. That is aquaintance with evil. By the way it was God who put the choice there in the Garden not Satan. Satan cast doubt on God's word. Adam believed him rather than God. I do not see why this has anything to do with whether we have a sin nature? Satan was the catlyst. Why would God need a tree if Satan was the only thing that was needed in order to get him to sin? You suggest that with the tree in the garden and without Satan Adam would not have sinned. Even if this is true - so what - it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It is speculative and irrelevant.

The word translated in English as 'nature' in the Bible is 'phusis.' It is used 14 times in the NT in Rom.1:26, 2:14, 27; 11:21, 24(3x's); I Cor.11:14; Gal.2:15; 4:8; Eph.2:3; II Pet.1:14; and James 3:7(2x's).

It can mean the nature of something as a result of its natural developement or condition or somthing based on the physiological and genetic similarity as in James 3:7.

The condition or result of our human nature is a life seperated from the power and presence of God's Spirit in our life.

The other term translated as 'nature' is 'genesis' and is used 5 times in the NT. Matt. 1:1, 18; Luke 1:14; James 1:23, 3:6.

It can mean existence, lineage, history, or birth.

Now if we look at phusis and it contexts you will see that most (except james 3:7 - which is physical in nature) references our mode of life - that is what we do - our condition not our constituion. This condition is the result of Adams sin - that is death - but we are still the same entity or species - that is human beings.

For example:

Rom.1:26 - shows us the actions of those who practice sexual immorality. They do what God did not intend for us as humans to do.

Rom.2:14 - notice when Gentiles do instinctivly what is in the law they are a law unto themselves. they act in accordance with what God wanted humans to act like.

But all of this flows from our human nature not something happen after the fall.

Rom.11:21 - Notice that natural branches (the Jews) our not different types of humans but have a special relationship with God because of the choice God made. The Jews do not have some ontological advantage over the Gentiles but a revelatory and relational advantage over them.

Eph.2:3 - this is the crux of the matter. Notice that it references lived in the passions of our flesh following the desires of the flesh. This is what we gravitate toward without the Spirit of God or His Life. It is what humans do when seperated from God power and presence. The flesh and the soul become primary and uppemost not secondary and submitted to the Spirit - somthing that is possible when we are born again. So it says by nature we were chidren of wrath. If nature meant an ontological aspect then we would still be under wrath but it means by our conduct we were children of wrath because we were born into the seperated state of death.

II Pet.1:4 - do we actually partake of God's ontology? NO, or is it His character traits which flow from that ontology. Can we live holy lives with the Spirit - YES.

Either Adam had a sinful nature before he sinned and we do to or he did not and we do not. You cannot have it both ways. Adam had the advantage of having the Life of God and the Sprit of God we do not.

All the other verses that people have been quoting are talking about are fleshly desires which when acted upon result in sin, which are apart of our human nature that rule our existence apart from the power and presence of God's Spirit and Life. Since we do not have the Life of God nor His Spirit what do you think the human nature will do it will be weak and it will sin. Adam at least had a viable choice and chose to disobey from his will, unfortunately we are stuck in this place but with the grace of God in Christ we can have victory. We sin because we are compelled only by our human fleshly and soulish desires. We did not get an additional nature nor was the human nature subtracted from but the Life of God and His Spirit were subtracted and that is all that is needed to not be able to do the will of Him who holds Life in His very being.

An additional summary:

When God created humanity he did so with humanity having a dependency on God himself. Humanity was not created independent of God's Life and Presence. Humanity was a contingent being - that is his existence is dependent upon the Life of God.

So when Adam sinned it this cord that was broken. The humanity of Adam was changed only in relation to this aspect of God's Life and Presence not some ontological change.

When someone asks why we sin and we respond because we have a sin nature this is not exactly the case. When Adam sinned sin flowed from his humanity (his will - his freedom of choice) not from some sin nature. When we sin sin flows from our human nature void of the Power and Presence of God not because something was added to our human nature or because something ontologically was changed in it - somthing was changed in relationship to it - think fellowship. The only difference is its relationship to the Life and Presence of God. This is how death entered the world. This life was symbolized by the tree of Life. That is why it was guarded when Adam sinned. Physically we are dying and soulishly we will be seperated from this Life for ever in hell. Christ restored that fellowship not just spiritually but physically - that is why the resurrection is not just spiritual but bodily.

Being born into this state is what causes us to sin. Nature in this sense is our existence apart from the Life and Presence of God not our ontology. We our out of sync with God by virtue of this removal. We only have a sin nature if we understand it as such not some thing regarding our constitution that was added after the fall.

Humanity + God's Life and Presence = Free will to choose Life verses Death. This was confused by the entrance of the Serpent.

Humanity - God's Life and Presence = bondage to the Flesh and Death. You may still do things in the Law that are good but you cannot in this state choose Life eternal nor do you have the power to be perfect. The only way for reconciliation is:

Humanity - God's Life and Presence + faith in Christ = Free will to Chose Life and Death. But there is a caveat once this choice has been made we are fixed (by God's Grace) in a state that when the total results of salvation are complete - that is the resurecction of the Body not just the soul - we will no longer be able to sin as Adam.

As Christians why do we still sin even though we have the power not to by His Spirit - because we now have the freedom to choose to surrender to the Flesh and the Spirit just like Adam - but when the resurrection comes we will be better off than Adam.

Because Adam was decieved God made provision for sin in Christ - the second Adam. Otherwise God could have easily fixed that state of hoplessnes just as the angels who sinned.

Anywho praise be to God.

[carolina_guy]

Hi again, I'm not sure if this has been discussed in the thread or not, but I read this last night. This is from the NIV, and the KJV uses the word "flesh" instead of sinful nature.

Romans 7

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Future Glory
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
More Than Conquerors
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[rkv11]

On Sin Nature

If mankind were to have a sin nature, that would imply that we do not choose to sin, but that we have to sin because of our nature. This is definitely not in conjunction with scripture. Scripture clearly talks about sin as being willful whether saved or unsaved, and we will be judged because of what we have done, do, or will have done. This soundly speaks against a sin nature concept, because God, as the Just Judge, will judge each individual man and woman for what he has done, not for what someone else did or does.
A few other questions must be asked in regard to a sin nature. First, if we have a nature to sin, then we are born to do all sin, will do all sin, and will continue in all sin until we die. How does one repent from this? The Bible is clear that man must repent of his own sins, but how can one repent of what he is naturally? Beyond that, how can mankind repent of someone else's sin of which he never committed personally? (How can I repent of Adam's sin? I never partook of the tree, and therefore have no personal remorse for his sin.) However, a theology has been created stating that in Adam all of mankind was represented, and since Adam sinned we are all guilty. This is nowhere found in scripture. Also, this is against God's nature in dealing with mankind. He has given all men a choice, either follow Him or don't. When we do not it is sin, and we must repent from that sin.
Secondly, if we have a sin nature then Christ must have had one also since according to Hebrews 4:15 He (Christ) was tempted in all manner like as we are, yet without sin. Now, I understand that immediately the reader thinks this is pure blasphemy, and IT IS! Christ could not be tempted in ALL MANNER LIKE AS WE ARE yet without sin. If one holds to a sin nature position and believes this verse in conjunction, then the only way for Christ to be tempted in all manner like as we are, would for Him to have a sin nature like us. Something should be obviously amiss therefore. Either Christ had a sin nature, or we do not. (Oh, if He had a sin nature, then Christ would have sinned, not by choice, but by his nature, like a fish swims - it's his nature, or a cat meows - it's his nature, or an apple tree produces apples - its nature... See the point? None of these things can choose to be anything other than its nature, nor does it want to be or even think to try to be.) Christ could not have had a sin nature. For Him to be tempted in all manner like as we are then must mean that we do not have one either or, well, the Bible lied in Hebrews.
What about Psalms 51:5? Those who truly study the Bible will learn to not take one verse by itself, as this can prove to be rather dangerous. What is Psalm 51 all about? It is David's acknowledgment of sin, and his repentance for that sin. The first four verses show that David is clearly heartbroken and taking responsibility for his own personal sin. If verse 5 is about sin nature, then David is blaming someone else for his sin, thereby showing that he is not repenting at all, but blame shifting. Reading on, the reader will see that David is definitely repenting as his language did not change from verses 1-4. Even if this could possibly be "sin nature" those who hold to the sin nature argument would be remiss to realize that David mentions his mother, not his father. Why is this to be noted? The argument is that Christ did not have a sin nature, because He did not have an earthly father, and the sin nature is passed on in the male seed. (Support that Biblically.) But David mentions his mother only.
What about Romans 5:12? Again, one must take this passage in context. First, the verse states that by one man sin entered into the world. That would be correct, Adam was the first man to sin after Creation in this world, thus beginning the life of sin continuing to present time. The next part of the verse says and death by sin. Adam did not immediately die physically. Adam also died spiritually, until his sin was dealt with. The verse concludes by stating that DEATH passes upon all men, NOT SIN. It is true that sin affects more than just oneself, and the resulting curse has passed physical death upon all men. Spiritual death also reigns over mankind until they choose Him. Mankind has been born into darkness as I John 2 illustrates, and need the Light in order to live eternally. Romans 5 does not stop with this one verse. Paul was a trained Pharisee (Equivalent to a Lawyer today) and he writes in a logical argument manner. Paul is proving a point and one must read further to find Paul's point. Verse 14 talks about all man sinning, but not after the "similitude" or sameness of Adam's sin (so, we're not being judged nor blamed for Adam's sin, but our own sin under the law). Verse 15 offers more insight "...for IF through the offence of one man, many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded to many." I emphasized the word if in this verse for good reason. Those who say they know Greek well would claim that if can be translated since. That creates a problem, however, grammatically. Bear with me for a quick grammar lesson. The word if, though small, has tremendous influence in any statement by creating the subjunctive mood. Here is how this mood works and is used. If I were you I would not jump off that cliff. Am I you? No, I am stating something contrary to fact. I am not you, but IF I were, I would not jump. Change the word IF to SINCE, and watch what occurs. Since I am you, I will jump off of that cliff - Completely different meaning than the first sentence. Ok, so how does this apply? Change IF to SINCE in Romans 5:15, and now the verse is entirely changed, and so is Romans 5 in its entirety. Now back to the logic that Paul is building. If we did have a sin nature, and it is being argued in this passage, then Paul's argument would follow this line. That since all men are sinners because of a Sin Nature passed upon all men from Adam, then all men are declared even more righteous because of a greater man Christ. In other words, Christ died for the sin nature of mankind, and now all are declared righteous because Christ is greater than Adam. This must be preposterous, because Salvation is a choice just as much as sin is a choice that all men have to make. If there is a Sin Nature that passed upon all men because of Adam and Christ is greater than Adam, then a much more superior Righteous Nature is passed upon all men. No one now has to accept Christ, because the choice has already been made. That is definitely not Biblical, and is most definitely heresy. What was Paul saying in verse 15? He is talking about sin versus righteousness, but he is saying that mankind chooses sin, and that sin reigns unto death. Now, because of Christ, mankind can choose Christ instead of sin, and live. Christ is greater than sin! This logic stays on point with Paul's larger argument laid out from Chapters 1-8.
Verses 16-21 continue to talk about the result of sin reigning upon all men, death. This is in context with verses 12-15. Death has passed upon all men because all men choose to sin. Verse 19 seems to be an argument for sin nature because by one man many were made sinners. But the verse does not stop there. Adam did introduce sin into this world, and man became blinded because of sin. But again, if the entire world became sinners because of Adam, then the entire world is declared righteous because of Christ as the rest of the verse continues "so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." The grammatical logic has to apply to both halves of the verse. Many does mean a lot, but not all! Many were made sinners, not all, as Christ became a man and did not sin. Many means a lot but not all, as not everyone will accept Christ and repent of his own sin. Sin reigns unto death spiritually because it transgressed God's Law. Grace reigns unto life Spiritually because of Christ's work.
To sum up Romans 5:12-21. Because of Adam's sin man will die physically, and is dead spiritually without Christ. Why? Because Adam and Eve walked with Christ knowing what to do, and they decided to do otherwise. Upon such a choice, mankind went from being in the Light of God's presence into Darkness without God. God's Law is still in place, showing what sin is. God decided to be Gracious to mankind and provide a way for that man to live in the Light again, that way is through Christ alone. Through Christ the power of sin is dead, and death is dead. This can pass to all men, but all men have to choose Christ. This passage is not about the passage of sin upon all mankind at all! It is about Christ and His powerful work unto life! (cf I Corinthians 15:53-57)
What about I Corinthians 2:14? This passage defines the difference between darkness and light. Those that are in the darkness cannot comprehend light, and those that are in light cannot comprehend darkness. This is a spiritual application. Paul contrasts the world's wisdom with God's Wisdom showing God's wisdom to be greater. If one would argue that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, then because of sin nature no one can be saved ever. That would then limit Christ's work to the few chosen, not the whole world for whom Christ died as mentioned in John 3:16.
These are the few passages that are used to create the whole doctrine of "sin nature". However, they are untenable at best. God's Word mentions Sin, Hell, Death, Life, Grace, Mercy, the Law, Redemption, Hell, etc. many times throughout, yet for something so large as the concept of sin nature, the Bible is silent. Christ does not even deal with sin nature during His earthly ministry, yet he does deal with personal sin with all those to whom He speaks.
Where does the sin nature concept originate? From what I have been able to research (others may have more info on this than I), Sin Nature was introduced into Christian thinking when Augustine wrote His now popular works City of God and Confessions. Augustine did not use the Bible to create or support his philosophy, but he uses pagan philosophy and comes to what seems to be a logical conclusion. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin for more on this).
One final thought: What about Babies? No one has to teach them to sin. This is correct, no one has to teach a baby to sin. They are, however, born into darkness apart from a relationship with God. Mankind always seeks God, unless otherwise educated away from such a position as Atheists are trained. Notice mankind's incredible attempts to reach God in the creation and continuation of false religions such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, et. al. All of these religions try in some way to work to Heaven or to please God. Christianity is alone different in that it realizes that mankind cannot please God without God's help. However, because of the darkness of sin, mankind is searching to find God on his own. We will always fall short without His gracious help as Romans 3:23 points out. The point is this, man knows there is a God as Romans 1 states, but man does not know how to get to Him. Man then tries to devise his own way to reach God, this is sin when it does not follow God's plan in His Word. Babies do not know sin, nor can they communicate it as such. The only thing that a baby can communicate is his basic needs, food, drink, love, sleep, and diaper changing. These things are not sin. What becomes sin for anyone, young or old, is when the Law is applied, and the young or old chooses not to obey it. The young is in just as much darkness apart from God as the Old is in darkness, no difference. What about those babies who die before the age of accountability? David states confidently in II Samuel 7 that he will see his dead son in heaven again. Interesting, as sin cannot in any way be in God's presence for eternity. If man has a sin nature, then that baby should be in Hell, not Heaven. This is a powerful statement showing that David's child though human and born because of sin, did not inherit sin, and was thusly allowed to enter Heaven for eternity, because he chose no sin nor could he. The only way for a baby to enter Heaven is if he were not guilty of sin, his own or Adam's, but under the doctrine of sin nature, we are guilty and damned because of Adam's choice, even a baby. That baby then under the doctrine of sin nature should always go to Hell. The Bible does not support this.
In conclusion, the verses seemingly supporting sin nature are taken out of context. The verses taken in context point out death apart from Christ, personal guilt for our own sin, and need of repentance. The many verses in the Bible about sin, repentance, and salvation all talk about personal choices. Man sins because of his choice, man repents because of his choice, and salvation is chosen by man.
Nota Bene: If we have a sin nature, all homosexuals are born that way because of sin nature, all murderers are born that way because of sin nature, all liars are born that way because of sin nature, etc. not by choice. All Christians will acknowledge that sin is a choice, but not all Christians realize that sin nature relinquishes that choice, especially with the aforementioned sins.

[DuaneMilbury]

Let me say as a disclaimer that I am a Wesleyan Arminian, and very much believe in the free will of man. With that said, I do believe the debate of man having a sinful nature or not, is not as cut and dry as many free will advocates would promote. Here are a few thoughts. If we have no sinful nature (or bent towards sin), what condition are we being transformed from through the salvation process? Further, if you follow this thought process out, there really should be no need for salvation, for we should be born with the Spirit of God already residing in us. So according to this view it would be possible for a person to go through life without sinning, which is very contradictory to the Bible's teaching that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Is repentence really as simple as making a choice to no longer do things that displease God, or is there a deeper heart level experience of conviction brought about by the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives that brings us to a cross-road of decision that must be made to either continue down the path of destruction, or turn to God for forgiveness and power to overcome sin. Having a sinful nature does not necessitate God be to blame for our sin. People are born with numerous diseases and disabilities every day, but should we blame God for these as well, or should we look at a deeper level for answers as to why these things happen. Is it possible that at the root of these physical infirmities is a problem that occured when sin and death entered the world, and has been passed on throughout human history ever since? Could it be that the tendency, so obviously seen in humanity to turn away from the things of God and lean towards sin is a inner spiritual issue that occured when sin and death entered the world, and has been passed on throughout human history ever since. I think to chalk every spiritual matter up to man's choices is really underplaying spiritual warfare, and the change that happened in man and the world when sin did enter the world.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

To me this seems to be a misunderstanding. Where in the Bible does it say we have a sin 'nature'? I am talking ontologically concerning our constitution as human beings subsequent to the Fall. I am not talking about not having sin but whether there is 'a thing' ontologically as a 'sin nature.'

I will wait fo some comments before I post anymore thoughts.

Why are you a sinner?