Do We Really Have A Sin "Nature"? (doctrine, believer, Moses)

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This is a complex question and will require an extended answer (several posts) . . . if anyone is truly interested. I will proceed under the assumption that at least Shiloh is interested. This requires a great deal of effort . . . so please issue a stop request if it is of no interest in THIS forum. I will endeavor to make it Christian by relating it to metaphors in scripture.

Yes we do have what could be called a sinful nature. Understanding it would go a long way toward understanding the true purpose of scripture. The composition and functioning of our brain would seem to be necessary detail . . . especially to fully appreciate the symbolism of the metaphors embedded in the scriptural accounts. However, I will endeavor to keep the discussion as uncomplicated as possible while conveying the essential information. (Any pros . . . consider the audience and no nit-picking)

All animals, including man, have what is called the old brain or basal ganglion. This old brain is the seat of our emotions and inner drives. We are unique in that our big brain has the necessary capabilities to enable us to override or suppress these inner drives (e.g. to turn the other cheek). The distinction between the old brain and our big brain will be clearer after I describe the behavioral differences between them.

Our big brain is, essentially, our cerebrum. The frontal lobe of our cerebrum is credited with being the seat of thought or consciousness.The other lobes enable us to see, hear, and activate the various muscles of our body. Coordination of these diverse functions is achieved through the mechanism of association.

The frontal lobe has access to all the information that comes into all the other lobes. It is the central receiving station for monitor and control of our body. The association neurons connecting it with the other lobes and the nerve fibers connecting it with the rest of the central nervous system are like the various controls situated on the amplifier in a complex stereo system. It has all the necessary controls for input and output, volume and tone, high range and low range filters, muting circuits, and so on. In fact, it even has two separate channels. The cerebrum is divided down the middle by a longitudinal fissure and each half corresponds to a separate side of our body.

Our soul has a partner in the production and coordination of our consciousness and behavior. That partner has some very definite ideas about the source and kind of "music" the soul should play through the stereo system of the brain. The pituitary gland is this partner. The pituitary is the most important organ we have. Its physical location, cradled in a complete bowl of bone, attests to its importance. It is the regulator for the entire body and becomes the key defense plant if our body is threatened in any way, real or imagined.

The pituitary is located in the other behavioral division of the brain called the limbic system, or "old brain." I shall consider with it the hindbrain and the entire autonomic nervous system. In essence, this covers the entire lower portion of the brain and spinal cord. The spinal cord and the brain are continuous both structurally and functionally. This old brain is sometimes referred to as the reptilian brain and it looks very much like a serpent.

This second behavioral grouping contains every factor necessary to animal life, every instinct, drive, and capability except thought. ( The process of thinking is restricted to the cerebrum.) This old brain is the motivation and emotion center. This center is virtually identical to the one in the lower animals and is the regulator of our emotions. Emotions are chemical and physical changes in the body that result from hormone stimulation of various glands and control centers in the body. The pituitary, the master gland, produces the various hormones to stimulate all the others.

Motivation and emotion in the human animal are intricate multifaceted phenomena. However, the complexity of human emotions cannot be attributed solely to this emotion center. It is the marriage of soul and animal that produces the complex human emotions and motivations. The complexity arises from the inclusion of our soul (consciousness and subconsciousness) in what would otherwise be the typical animal responses.

Our consciousness provides many sources of response that are lacking in animals. For example, the limbic system cannot distinguish between real and imaginary situations. It responds to imagination as if it were reality, which explains most of the complication in human emotions. Animals do not imagine and are spared these complex emotions. For them the pituitary must be stimulated by actual situations or prior conditioning.

When we or our circumstances signal the pituitary in a positive manner it will produce conditions in the body that are almost uniformly beneficial. We call these the positive emotions. When we or our circumstances signal the pituitary in a negative manner . . . it will produce conditions we call the negative emotions. While these conditions endow us with potentially life-saving temporary enhancements of our capabilities, they can be very physically harmful to our body if prolonged.

If we or our circumstances fail to signal, we do not emote. If we transmit positive signals, regardless what is occurring, we will experience the positive emotions. For some psychic adepts, it is possible to visualize pleasant situations, even during extremely painful physical circumstances and, thus, be spared the pain. Unfortunately, that kind of discipline is not easy, nor is it possible in all situations. However, whether they are good or bad, emotions are chemical and physical changes in our body resulting from the transmission of signals to the old brain - our animal nature. The old brain is the source of ALL our sinful desires. I will continue in a subsequent post . . . if there is interest and no objections.

For the sake of argument Mystic lets us agree on everthing you said - I would chalk that up to just being the human nature. Christians usually say that we aquired some additional aspect at the fall to our human nature or our human nature changed into a sinful nature - that is my inquiry and my disagreement. One point of possible disagreement with what you said 9see highlight) is that why would the old brain and its 'animal desires' be sinful per-se? It may be the source but there is nothing new about that in the way Christians commonly use the term. Now I am not saying I agree with the above but I think it missed my point. But I still am interested in what you want to say so proceed.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Well yes, but this is what I hear Christians say all the time - we have a sin nature without further thought of what they are saying.

What's your point, Shiloh1?

Preterist

[aquila]

Preterist, I think he just wants Christians to be aware of what they are actually professing when they profess it. To say that humans have a sinful nature isn't such an easy thing to clarify, so why do Christians say it without actually being able to explain what it means?

[mams1559]

Psalm 51:2-7 (NIV) - Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts [a] ;
you teach [b] me wisdom in the inmost place. 7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

Is this some scripture you were looking for on this topic? I believe this represents us after the fall. Since Adam and Eve were created by God himself and therefore they were without sin when created (born), for David to state he was sinful from conception means this is the result of the Fall. So therefore we are born with a sinful nature, as we know infants without the ability to reason or understand right from wrong cannot willfully sin.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Now I am not saying I agree with the above but I think it missed my point. But I still am interested in what you want to say so proceed.

Actually . . . it would require substantial effort for something that "misses the point," Shiloh. I'll decline.

Originally Posted by Preterist

What's your point, Shiloh1?

Preterist

Ok, let me ask you this: How did adam sin if, when he was created, he did not have a sin nature and if as Christians say we aquired it after the fall?

[aquila]

Shiloh, I don't usually do this, but I want to thank you for starting this thread. It has actually made me think about something I never really thought about.

[Huckleberry3911948]

it means, we are born monkeys unless there is heavy discipline = punishment & reward
we grow rapidly into large aggressive monkeys.

Originally Posted by aquila

Shiloh, I don't usually do this, but I want to thank you for starting this thread. It has actually made me think about something I never really thought about.

Thanks, I am still thinking about it

Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948

it means, we are born monkeys unless there is heavy discipline = punishment & reward
we grow rapidly into large aggressive monkeys.

Personally I do not subscribe to the monkey theory.