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(Romans 5:18) 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Well if you're not careful there, if you drive the parallel in the wrong direction, you're going to come out with this, "Well everybody was affected by Adam's sin and became sinners, therefore everybody is affected by Christ's righteous work and becomes righteous." The problem with that is that's not true. Paul is talking about the impact of the work of Christ, how that the work of Christ is the redeeming work of all who believe. BUT LOOK AT \/
(Verse 19) For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Not ALL
And the question that comes up in the mind of the reader is going to be, "How can one man's act have such a great effect? How can the act of one man have such massive implications?" And so he simply makes the parallel. "Look, by one man's sin, everybody died. Everybody who died died. And by one man's righteousness, everybody who became righteous became righteous." He even changes his terminology in (verse 19) where he says, "Just to make sure we don't think the 'all' is inclusive, as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of one, many will be made righteous."
(Romans 8:32) "He who did not spare His own Son but delivered Him up for us all."
Who's the all here? Christ was delivered up for us all. Now some people will say, "Well He was delivered up for everybody in the whole world." That's not...is that who he's talking about here? Is that Paul's us?
Well let's go back to (verse 31), just back up one. "If God is for us, who is against us?"Now who is the us there? Everybody in the whole world, is God for everybody in the whole world?then who can be against us?and who is who?Makes no sense. We have to qualify us. Well who is the us that God is for? I'll tell you who it is, (verse 29), "Whoever He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, whoever He predestined, verse 30, He called, whoever He called He justified, whoever He justified, these He also glorified and if God is for us, who can be against us." It's the us of those who were predestined and called and justified and glorified. To put it another way, (verse 33), "Who will bring a charge against God's elect?" It is the elect, we are the us all.
notice it says the many (Greek oi polloi), ther article has signicifance as far as I know, it says not only many, but the many
For as by the one man’s disobedience the manywere made sinners,
are not all men sinners, aren't at least these many then all?
if all are not all, then you can't say that all men are sinners either
I believed I explained that partalready
Paul puts that in there just to back us off the wrong understanding of verse 18 which would make everybody saved. He is trying to illustrate the point that one man's work, one man's deed effects all who proceed from that one man. So that is all only in the appropriate sense, qualified again in the context.
He goes from all to many, it is inconsistent, why not use "all" again? sorry but Paul is clearly trying to get his point across that all does not mean everybody by changing his term to "many".
Paul puts that in there just to back us off the wrong understanding of verse 18 which would make everybody saved. He is trying to illustrate the point that one man's work, one man's deed effects all who proceed from that one man. So that is all only in the appropriate sense, qualified again in the context.
He goes from all to many, it is inconsistent, why not use "all" again? sorry but Paul is clearly trying to get his point across that all does not mean everybody by changing his term to "many".
The extents the carnal mind will go to deny the truth .
(Romans 5:18) 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Well if you're not careful there, if you drive the parallel in the wrong direction, you're going to come out with this, "Well everybody was affected by Adam's sin and became sinners, therefore everybody is affected by Christ's righteous work and becomes righteous." The problem with that is that's not true. Paul is talking about the impact of the work of Christ, how that the work of Christ is the redeeming work of all who believe. BUT LOOK AT \/
(Verse 19) For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Not ALL
And the question that comes up in the mind of the reader is going to be, "How can one man's act have such a great effect? How can the act of one man have such massive implications?" And so he simply makes the parallel. "Look, by one man's sin, everybody died. Everybody who died died. And by one man's righteousness, everybody who became righteous became righteous." He even changes his terminology in (verse 19) where he says, "Just to make sure we don't think the 'all' is inclusive, as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of one, many will be made righteous."
Verse 19 proves that "the many" means ALL, because ALL were made sinners through Adam. It is the same "the many" (ALL) who are made righteous through Christ. You are looking at this completely backwards. It is a clear parallel, confirmed by Romans 5:18.
Romans 8:32 is talking about the elect, which has nothing to do with the salvation of everyone else.
Everyone else is saved because God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe (1 Tim 4:10). See, God saves 2 groups:
1. those who believe are saved especially - they are the elect
2. but everyone else (all men) are also saved
Likewise:
John 12:30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
The scripture says it plainly. It shows what kind of death He was going to die. It was for ALL men. Just like the many other verses that say Jesus died for the sins of the world, Jesus is the savior of all men, Jesus is the propitation of the sin for the World, Jesus takes away the sins of the world, etc.
But I already saw your response about Romans 5 on the other thread. We will disagree over how to read plain English I guess.
so then as [it was] by one offence towards all men to condemnation,
so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.
For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners,
so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.
the first many from verse 19 must at least be the same first all from verse 18
Quote:
Paul puts that in there just to back us off the wrong understanding of verse 18 which would make everybody saved.
you would admit that at least verse 18 alone would make everybody saved?
notice verses 12-15 (Darby)
For this [cause], even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (for until law sin was in [the] world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law; but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even upon those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is [the] figure of him to come. But [shall] not the act of favour [be] as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which [is] by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.
it says death passed upon all men, and the many have died, the many are again all, all have died in Adam:
For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive. (1Co. 15:22)
Paul puts that in there just to back us off the wrong understanding of verse 18 which would make everybody saved. He is trying to illustrate the point that one man's work, one man's deed effects all who proceed from that one man. So that is all only in the appropriate sense, qualified again in the context.
He goes from all to many, it is inconsistent, why not use "all" again? sorry but Paul is clearly trying to get his point across that all does not mean everybody by changing his term to "many".
If that's what he meant he did an awful job. It's more consistent with ALL meaning ALL men (as opposed to just a few). If he really wanted to specify he could have easily said something else. Such as, "Christ died for all so that the many that will believe will be saved." But he does not do this, he contrasts "the many" that died (all men) with "the many" that will be saved, that is, ALL men. By showing that the former "the many" is all men, he suggests that the latter "the many" are also all men.
(2 Corinthians 5:14-15) 14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
People say, "Oh, He died for all, He died for the whole world, every single person in the whole world. He died for them all? No. He died for all, therefore all died. The all He died for died. What is that? Well when you came to Christ, do you remember you died, is that not true? "I am crucified...what?...with Christ." In Him you die. So He died for all therefore all died. He died for the all who died in Him. (Verse 15), He died for all and who are the all? They who live. He died for those who died and live in Him. It was for them that He died and arose again, end of (verse 15), on their behalf.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-25-2009 at 03:19 PM..
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Makes no sense. We have to qualify us. Well who is the us that God is for? I'll tell you who it is, (verse 29), "Whoever He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, whoever He predestined, verse 30, He called, whoever He called He justified, whoever He justified, these He also glorified and if God is for us, who can be against us." It's the us of those who were predestined and called and justified and glorified. To put it another way, (verse 33), "Who will bring a charge against God's elect?" It is the elect, we are the us all.
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