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These are not the physically dead but the physically alive and spiritually dead people.
Exactly! but the word used for dead can have two meanings. This doesn't mean that both meanings apply. And it doesn't mean that all uses of dead mean spiritually dead. But Saul is dead and Paul alive.
1 Cor 15:51
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-"
What is the mystery? and who is he talking about using "we"?
My use of sarcasm and your use of quotes can use a little work, I admit.
I agree with a lot of the things you say but I think you may be slighlty askew here with regards to interpretation...
Rev. 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; 5and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If what you are saying is true about the elect and non-elect... then are you of the view that we live in the 1000 year reign of Christ, today?
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Stands to reason that if the apostles were the firstfruits and we know that they were persecuted then Rev. 20:4 surely applied to them... Besides the fact that I was under the impression that you believe we are living in Rev 21 now and all of 20 has been fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 15:26-28 (New International Version) 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So death is destroyed (Rev. 20:14) or made new, depending on your view of the lake of fire. Then Christ is put under God. There is no reign of Jesus after the 1000 years.. God takes over and is all in all.
So your reference to the elect and non-elect does not apply now if you also believe we live in a Rev 21 kingdom NOW.
If not then perhaps I misunderstood your beliefs.
You certainly did because I believe all prophecy has been fulfilled. It still amazes me today that people believe Jesus will walk the dirt again one day, in a physical kingdom on earth when everything He ever said was spiritual. There will always, be sin, suffering and death and long as we live in a physical body and it won't ever change until we leave and go to be with the Lord. Sometimes we are no better than the Jews back in Jesus day looking for a physical king and we all know what happened to them.
Please answer this question...read Genesis 2:16-17 and tell me what God meant when He told them that "in the day you eat from it, you will surely die."?
Please refrain from changing quotes. A quote is like saying I directly said that. I know that you put them in red but if you quote my words sentence by sentence instead then it is a quote of my words. It's hard to respond to the parts in the quotes when it is all jumbled and it also confuses what I said with what you are replying.
Sorry if you didn't like the sarcasm buy why do you understand that the cross is not literal, the "dead" in 1 peter 4:5-6 is not literal, but somehow Jesus' blood only covers certain people?
The author of Romans is saying he is no better than anyone else in sin. Even though we know that Christ had already died and risen. Therefore how can you say that the blood of Christ does not cover everyone.
How can you agree that there is no difference in everyone's fate when even Paul says we are not different in our sins. It wasn't the faith in his blood that bypassed sin or showed his righteousness... It was the blood. The blood is seen by us through faith. It was the BLOOD that is put in place of sins.... ALL sins. Not faith in the blood.
So many people get this mixed up but it is a simple as not believing you must physically carry a cross. After death a person's sins are covered by the Blood.. This is fact. Faith in the power of the blood does not diminish nor increase the POWER of the blood.
Therefore, regardless of one's level of faith in the blood, the blood has the Power to blot out sin.
You are essentially saying that if there is no faith in the blood then the blood is powerless. I don't believe that is what you mean. The blood's power is clear.. Have faith that the blood is powerful enough to wipe out sin regardless of the person who sins. A myriad of supporting verses come to mind but I will leave it at that... otherwise my post will become a book!
So you honestly believe that you can live your physical life without faith in the atoning sacrifice that Jesus made by shedding His blood and still be covered by His blood when you stand before Him in judgment?? Say it isn't so!!
HotinAZ, do you not believe in a death-bed conversion, or a death-bed repentance?
You said: If a sinner asks for forgiveness UPON death, ressurected, standing in front of God, yet still a sinner, then how do they repent? Repent means to "turn away" from evil. Repenting takes time. It is not something that happens all at once. The heart is transformed, by God, and when a person has overcome, then the transformation is complete. How is this possible after death?
Why is it not possible after death? It would be possible after the resurrection.
Yes it takes time, but sometimes not much. Look at Saul's/Paul's conversion. It took him about 5 seconds to turn and come to Christ.
5 seconds? Yea, he was blinded, and told by Jesus personally that He had a job for him. He was a "chosen vessel". You are using the 1 person in the entire new testament, that Jesus did this to, and it was not FOR him, but rather it was for God's Purpose. Paul just "went along" with it, although not really by choice. 5 seconds turned into 14 years.
Do I believe in a deathbed conversion? Yes. If a person has never heard the Gospel, and upon their deathbed heard it for the first time, yes. You know, like the thief on the cross.
Now, Do I believe that a person who has heard the Gospel and turned their backs on it their entire life, in order to serve sin and the world, and upon their deathbed attempted to deceive God into a sinner's prayer for fear of hell? That this person would be saved? LOL. Sorry, no.
Quote:
Why is it not possible after death? It would be possible after the resurrection.
Really? Show me. Show me how in the next life a person who has died in their sins, unrepentant, now has a second/third/infinite chance(s) at redemption.
My answers are in red above and I'd still like scripture that shows one can repent after physical death.
Reading your response I'm confident you won't believe the scriptures I present. Would you believe God will save all if I showed you a scripture that says God will save all?
Your comments in red:
God will draw all men to himself (Please provide scripture for this also).
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
The only people made alive in Christ are those who believe, in faith, in Him.
Here you are twisting the words of God, its not all who believe, its all, period:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Yes he can, but that has to be accomplished before physical death...there is no second chance after death.
And I'm waiting for you to show me a scripture that says there is no second chance after death.
Regarding repentance:
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Does God's kindness run out at a person's death, so He will no longer lead him to repentance?
You are avoiding the answer to your own questions Christy, it is staring you in the face. It is true one can make the bible say what they want, by ignoring any scripture that contradicts. You wish to make the bible say that many people will be eternally dead. So, to you, that is what the bible appears to say.
Yes he can, but that has to be accomplished before physical death...there is no second chance after death.
And I'm waiting for you to show me a scripture that says there is no second chance after death.
This is the hypocritical aspect I encountered before, the declaration is made that the bible doesn't have to say it word for word. As long as their view is supported that way, sure, but an opposing view had better say it word for word by golly.
Do I believe in a deathbed conversion? Yes. If a person has never heard the Gospel, and upon their deathbed heard it for the first time, yes. You know, like the thief on the cross.
Ok this is interesting. So someone who has heard the gospel all their lives, rejected it, but then at the last minute, honestly and truely accepts it: too bad its too late for him!?!? Because He didn't have enough time in this life to repent?
Now you are saying its too late for some people while they are still alive! Sorry this is not biblical. You are showing your true heart HotinAZ. You are saying anyone who hasn't "done the time" does not deserve salvation. Tell me, what is the "necessary time" required for true repentance? Can God not change someone in a millisecond if He chose to?
No where does it say its too late for salvation, in this life or after the resurrection.
Exactly! but the word used for dead can have two meanings. This doesn't mean that both meanings apply. And it doesn't mean that all uses of dead mean spiritually dead. But Saul is dead and Paul alive.
1 Cor 15:51
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-"
What is the mystery? and who is he talking about using "we"?
My use of sarcasm and your use of quotes can use a little work, I admit.
Before I can answer your questions property I need you to read 1 Cor 15:20-26 and tell me when you believe the end came?
My answers are in red above and I'd still like scripture that shows one can repent after physical death.
Just as I said... physical death has nothing to do with it. Paul said we are not different in our sins. It wasn't the faith in his blood that bypassed sin or showed his righteousness... It was the blood. The blood is seen by us through faith. It was the BLOOD that is put in place of sins.... ALL sins. Not faith in the blood. You and I see sin.. God sees the blood.
1 Corinthians 15:16-18 (New International Version) 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
But they are not lost, right? Isn't that what is said here?
Romans 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
The gift is the blood right?
Romans 8:20-21 (New International Version) 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Footnotes: Romans 8:21 Or subjected it in hope. 21 For)
in the hope it is a mystery... in faith it is revealed.
Hebrews 8:11-13 (New International Version) 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Footnotes: Hebrews 8:12 Jer. 31:31-34
Hebrews 10:16-17 (New International Version) 16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." Footnotes: Hebrews 10:16 Jer. 31:33; Hebrews 10:17 Jer. 31:34
The fact that this is said in Jeremiah makes it seem as if it is only for the "house of Isreal"... but yet here it is again. Do we say that only the "house of Isreal" is covered by the blood... Some do!
So many people get this mixed up but it is a simple as not believing you must physically carry a cross. After death a person's sins are covered by the Blood.. This is fact. Faith in the power of the blood does not diminish nor increase the POWER of the blood.
Therefore, regardless of one's level of faith in the blood, the blood has the Power to blot out sin.
You are essentially saying that if there is no faith in the blood then the blood is powerless. I don't believe that is what you mean. The blood's power is clear.. Have faith that the blood is powerful enough to wipe out sin regardless of the person who sins.
(Most of this is a repeat of a previous post but since you didn't seem to get what I was saying I elaborated.)
Before I can answer your questions property I need you to read 1 Cor 15:20-26 and tell me when you believe the end came?
The end of what? The end of the message? The end of the old and start of the new?
I believe you are referring to whether I believe we are stuck in Rev 20 (or rather, whether we are in the old covenant) or in Rev 21 (the new covenant)
I believe all prophecy is complete and the new covenant is in effect. Not sure if I answered your question right, but I tried to do it without sarcasm.
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