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It's funny you can tell people who don't want to study the scriptures for themselves. I for one am one who study for more understanding.
I never took the scripture out of context, I provided the entire scripture, not just one word, but the entire scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
The point is you are reading the greek or hebrew and using your English rules of grammar to read it. Some words come before other words but using that languages style of grammar, that is not how it is read. You can read a spanish book and if you read it literally with English rules of grammar a lot of it would not make any sense. Some words come before others but that is NOT how it is read. You would have to be fluent in that language to understand it. If you as an an English speaking person had a spanish book read to you word for word some of it would sound funny. Words would seem out of order,etc. That`s because that is not how a spanish person would read it.
Thank you spm... I guess what I said was confusing...Also, I believe in a prior post that Miss Shawn said she can read hebrew and greek... In that case I may have to concede as I cannot.. I would be handicapped in that instance but even reading the translation word for word in the order presented in that post it still reads the same in my mind... cuz grammar dictates I have to put nouns, verbs, adj., adv... etc in their proper order. Punctuation also plays a part, as does inflection. Nonetheless, I will have to go with what the translators thought was the proper order of things and although they could have made mistakes it seems the probability of them getting the majority right is high.
The point is you are reading the greek or hebrew and using your English rules of grammar to read it. Some words come before other words but using that languages style of grammar, that is not how it is read. You can read a spanish book and if you read it literally with English rules of grammar a lot of it would not make any sense. Some words come before others but that is NOT how it is read. You would have to be fluent in that language to understand it. If you as an an English speaking person had a spanish book read to you word for word some of it would sound funny. Words would seem out of order,etc. That`s because that is not how a spanish person would read it.
When you attend classes and take the required material that it takes the study the language, then I beg to differ that I am using english grammer to read the language.
I don't have to use a translated bible, all I have to do is open the bible an read it for myself. I recommend that for everyone. It is funny, that I provided the scripture, not my word, and people think that I am only picking out words.
If you read the scripture for yourself, you will have the meaning for yourself.
Yes, I will admit I am not an expert on the language, but I know I have probably studied more hebrew and greek, and arabic to understand what I am reading.
When you are learning spanish, you are taught to read the language not in english but spanish.
I was taught to read hebrew, greek, and arabic in that language. I not only learned symbols, but I actually learned the entire language in order to read the bible without help. I will continue to learn this language, just like the english language.
So, if you are going to try to insult me on what I have learned, you should atleast, know that I have been taught to read this language for myself, and that is more than what most can do for themselves.
Even as I translate, I always look up what I translated. But I have read the language so much, I already know what the words are ( but always look up how the word is being used) ( most if not all don't even do this), you just have to make sure you understand how the word is being used.
When it comes to looking at each individual ancient hebrew and greek word and looking at all the meanings the word can have. Yes I agree.
Saying you read Ancient Hebrew and Greek is irrelevant in and of itself. Memorizing the greek and hebrew symbols and pronoucing the words means thats all you have done. You will have to associate the symbol and the pronunciation with a translated meaning, there are no exceptions to this.
For each ancient greek and Hebrew symbol there are various meanings that could be used.
What you picked out IS how you actually are reading the language in any meaningful way.
There would unlikely be different translations if there was only the one meaning that you conclude when "reading". You provided the meaning you accept and it has nothing to do with being able to "read" hebrew or greek.
The ancient languages is more about pronunciation so let's talk about "reading" ancient hebrew and greek.
1 timothy 2:4 hos pas anthropos thelo sozo kai eis epignosis alethia erchomai
Even while your fluently pronunciating the words you are translating as you read it.
thelo
As you pronounce or read the Ancient Greek word "thelo" you will be thinking about the meaning you have accepted. "Thelo" doesn't mean a thing until you recognize what it has been translated to.
So, your "meaning" doesn't have any more significance than the translation I used and posted.
I believe this verse, YOUR explanation using different words contradicts another scripture, so I have no choice but to reject your conclusion that "Some will not come to God".
I do not memorize to read the language, I was taught to read the language. I do not memorize to read english, I was taught to read and speak english.
Do yo even know how to read the bible that our bible came from, if not, how can you even check if it is even true.
I did not change any words, or play with words, I simply translated what was there. I didn't add a word, or take away a word, just what was there.
So, either you refuse to believe what I translated, or just don't like what is there. You don't have to use my translation, all you have to do is look it up.
That is why it is important the read and learn the words for yourself.
Since, you can't read the language, look it up, and since you can't read what you are looking up, you will have to do a word study.
Quote:
1 timothy 2:4 hos pas anthropos thelo sozo kai eis epignosis alethia erchomai
I take if you copy and pasted this, but this is actually not translated properly. That is the error when you copy and paste.
1 Timothy 2:4
os pantas anthrōpous thelei sōthēnai kai eis epignōsin alētheias elthein
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. In the greek text
Anyway back on topic, nothing is coming out of this. Don't want the op sending the mod-police.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 09-05-2009 at 03:10 PM..
No, it is not my conclusion. I suggest you read the hebrew bible, it will be very useful to you. What I provided for you was not my words, but from the bible you choose to not believe. Read that same scripture in the hebrew bible and then look up the words and see what they mean.
That particular scripture is in greek, NT. Read it.
1 Tim 2:4 ὃς (who) πάντας (all) ἀνθρώπους (humans) θέλει ( is willing) σωθῆναι ( to be saved) καὶ (and) εἰς (into) ἐπίγνωσιν (on-knowledge) ἀληθείας (of-truth) ἐλθεῖν (to be coming).
Now if you study that scripture in its full text, you will get the full understanding of what it means.
NOw universalist want to argue all the time that english version has been tainted, but as you see, we are looking at the greek.
Who all humans is willing to be saved and into knowledge of the truth. So, what is this saying? Is it saying that all humans will be saved and brought into knowledge of the truth, or is this saying all humans who are willing to be saved into knowledge of the truth?
Look it up for yourself, so you don't think that I am making this up. I prefer to read the hebrew and greek and then go back into the english text.
I take scripture for what it says not what it doesn't say.
Hello, Miss Shawn. I don't read Hebrew or Greek but I'm so thankful that we have access to so many tools that can help us to understand what the original languages are saying, even online for free!
Concerning what I highlighted in blue in your quote, I'm looking at Blue Letter Bible right now, and it says that the word translated from the original language to say "will have" or "is willing" is a present active indicatve verb. The important part of that is that it is active, meaning simply:
Quote:
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.
So, you would need to know what the subject of that sentence is: Is "God" or "men" in the nominative case (the subject)? In Koine Greek, the noun changes form in order to reflect this. As I said, I do not read Koine Greek, so I cannot tell simply by looking which one of those nouns is in the nominative case. Can you?
Last edited by Pleroo; 09-05-2009 at 04:02 PM..
Reason: To clarify, hopefully
So, either you refuse to believe what I translated, or just don't like what is there. You don't have to use my translation, all you have to do is look it up.
Your translation is not the problem, it is your explanation that contradicts. But for your explanation to work, you cannot accept this.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I can accept this and your "translation" and still the conclude that "not all men will come to God" is an error.
You will have to defend your incorrect assertions of translation because to do otherwise will force you to have to drop your conclusion that "not all men come to God"
That's just how it is. If you want me to show your contradiction I will be happy too, I couldn't care less about the mod police.
I take if you copy and pasted this, but this is actually not translated properly. That is the error when you copy and paste.
1 Timothy 2:4
os pantas anthrōpous thelei sōthēnai kai eis epignōsin alētheias elthein
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. In the greek text
Anyway back on topic, nothing is coming out of this. Don't want the op sending the mod-police.
It is a simple matter of the source I have to copy and paste from, if your studies have taught you anything then you would know that the spelling of ancient hebrew and greek using the "english" alphabet has nothing to do with translation but pronunciation.
None of the words you say you "correctly" copied mean a thing till you translate them to some language. When they found the original texts, they meant nothing to anyone on the planet till someone translated them.
The issue with translation is context and usage derives the meanings from the list of available options.
So your "translation" is in context with your erroneous phrase "not all men will come to God"
Your translation is not the problem, it is your explanation that contradicts. But for your explanation to work, you cannot accept this.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I can accept this and your "translation" and still the conclude that "not all men will come to God" is an error.
You will have to defend your incorrect assertions of translation because to do otherwise will force you to have to drop your conclusion that "not all men come to God"
That's just how it is. If you want me to show your contradiction I will be happy too, I couldn't care less about the mod police.
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Well, lets see where did I get that all men will not be saved, as I said all men will not come to Jesus.
Since you do not read hebrew and greek, then we can't use that, now can we.
I don't have time to run around in circles with you, I am merely reading scripture.
Revelation 20:11-15 says:
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Then it goes onto talk about the New heaven and the New Earth. There is nothing that talks about God bringing those that are cast into the lake of fire onto the New Earth. Then it says they, well who are the they. Jesus says, you must come to me to have life.
So, from my understanding is anyone not found will be cast into the lake of fire.
I even used the english NKJV of 1 timothy 2:4 which you refuse to use, as some say because of translation issues. But if you read what you are using, it is not translated right compared to the greek text. But you refuse to accept that. Go figures.
God wants all men to be saved, but all men will not come to Him. Yes, I am reading the NKJV and I know that you are going to argue that all bible except your is correct, but if you read the Hebrew bible, which is a better version of all english bible, say or use the word anqrwpous (is willing) to be swqhnai (saved) ( this is how my computer is doing the text)
But anyway as I read the hebrew bible and study this verse, it is saying to me that God will have all men to be saved who is willing to be saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828
When you attend classes and take the required material that it takes the study the language, then I beg to differ that I am using english grammer to read the language.
I don't have to use a translated bible, all I have to do is open the bible an read it for myself. I recommend that for everyone. It is funny, that I provided the scripture, not my word, and people think that I am only picking out words. Yes, I will admit I am not an expert on the language, but I know I have probably studied more hebrew and greek, and arabic to understand what I am reading.
I was taught to read hebrew, greek, and arabic in that language. I not only learned symbols, but I actually learned the entire language in order to read the bible without help. I will continue to learn this language, just like the english language.
Even as I translate, I always look up what I translated. But I have read the language so much, I already know what the words are ( but always look up how the word is being used) ( most if not all don't even do this), you just have to make sure you understand how the word is being used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828
I do not memorize to read the language, I was taught to read the language. I do not memorize to read english, I was taught to read and speak english.
So, either you refuse to believe what I translated, or just don't like what is there. You don't have to use my translation, all you have to do is look it up.
I highlighted quite a few things... and cut out a lot of others... Do you have a computer program doing this for you and you look it up? or what? You say one cannot understand cuz they cannot read it as you can but then you say all one has to do is "look it up"
WAY off topic but... so confused. Do you know how to translate better than the ones who translated the versions we have or what? Not sure I understand anything other than your slightly condescending tone. Hebrew and Greek and Arabic are complex languages and ancient versus modern are different... so it is hard for me to understand how you can say you know enough about them to decipher that the translations are wrong in the versions given us. Besides... would you say that since you are able to READ it and not use a translation then translations, ie versions, must be blasphemous? See why I am confused?
"If then we are to speak of the language and philosophy in and from which the Old Testament was written we need to look at Paleo-Hebrew, or North Semitic as it is often called, and not to Classical Hebrew. In this there is one set back; most of the Hebrew scriptural text we have readily available today is written in the Post-Babylonian square Classical Hebrew characters. What good does it do us to know the language in which scripture was originally written, if it is no longer available? To understand and properly address this question we must look at the essential elements of both the Classical Hebrew, and Paleo-Hebrew languages." ..."The value of a language rests in its ability to convey truth. Can Greek do this? Yes, the student must however be mindful of the primitive heathen elements contained within it. We must keep in mind that the language has many non-Adamic elements, and is in fact based upon pagan Polytheism. Greek, in form and philosophy, centers itself on the idea of three (trinitarianism). Three tenses, three genders, the trinity of man, etc. The linguistic form is descended from the philosophy of the people. In striving to understand man, and his composition the Greeks hypothesized man to be composed of three parts. First there was the mechanical, physical - the body. Next there was the emotional and logical - the soul. The third component of man was the ethereal - the spirit. These three components were each related to the three principal deities of all pagan polytheistic cultures, Horus, Isis, Osiris (Father, Son, Mother) or Siva, Vishnu, and the Lord Brahma (perhaps more on this later)." Taken from the essay found at Greek VS Hebrew, or what language does Yahweh speak?, emphasis in bold is mine.
Many great items of study that combine/believe in God/Jesus. As a proponent of study I belive you would love to check it out.
But as far as this thread goes... the theory that you have it right because you can read greek or hebrew does not make the "all saved"= wrong or "some saved"= right.
I'm not going around in circles either, even if I posted post numbers and quoted what you said showing you are now saying something different from what you did say, what would it mean to you? Nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is true, and that's all it needs to mean. And it still does not contradict this
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Well, lets see where did I get that all men will not be saved, as I said all men will not come to Jesus.
Since you do not read hebrew and greek, then we can't use that, now can we.
I don't have time to run around in circles with you, I am merely reading scripture.
Revelation 20:11-15 says:
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Then it goes onto talk about the New heaven and the New Earth. There is nothing that talks about God bringing those that are cast into the lake of fire onto the New Earth. Then it says they, well who are the they. Jesus says, you must come to me to have life.
So, from my understanding is anyone not found will be cast into the lake of fire.
I even used the english NKJV of 1 timothy 2:4 which you refuse to use, as some say because of translation issues. But if you read what you are using, it is not translated right compared to the greek text. But you refuse to accept that. Go figures.
It boggles the mind how someone can use a part of a verse in Revelations and say it is literal and another part and say it is figurative.... Death and hades cast into the same lake of fire that the people that are not in the book of life are cast into. the people who were in hades are delivered from it and then those not found in the book who came out of death and hades are thrown into the same lake of fire as death and hades .... So is the book of life a literal book? Are death and hades physical things? are the people literally people?
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I don't read Hebrew or Greek but I'm so thankful that we have access to so many tools that can help us to understand what the original languages are saying, even online for free!
Do you know how to translate better than the ones who translated the versions we have or what? Not sure I understand anything other than your slightly condescending tone. Hebrew and Greek and Arabic are complex languages and ancient versus modern are different... so it is hard for me to understand how you can say you know enough about them to decipher that the translations are wrong in the versions given us. Besides... would you say that since you are able to READ it and not use a translation then translations, ie versions, must be blasphemous? See why I am confused? 
