Every knee will bow... or not? (abomination, believers, sinners, Jesus)

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Nikk

It will be everyone. Those destined for hell will bow, but not in reverence. Bowing just means you know who you are bowing to is of greater authority than you are.

Well, there is bowing, but also a confession that Jesus is Lord. Scripture says no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy spirit.

Definite implications here that many overlook.

I do however agree with fundamentalist that the word confess does not mean "Swear allegience". But it doesn't have to mean that in order to see what confessing Jesus as Lord may imply considering other passages.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

The Isa.66:23 verse is speaking of the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth when Gehenna will be in force. It is in the trash dump called Gehenna where the dead bodies will be dumped who were the worst offenders.

The Philippians passage is beyond the 1000 year age and New Earth age.

Ok that makes sense about the timing of Isa 66:23, which would be before the second resurrection, after the millenium.

Do you agree Isaiah 45:22-23 and Phil 2:10-11 are talking about the same thing.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

I really don't see the point of the new thread. I made my case, and rest it.

You cannot have ALL bowing and at the same time they are looking upon the dead bodies who transgressed against God.



I could not make this case for annihilation using these verses, as the fire is not quenched. It would make the case for a hell, but not annihilation.

Isa 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."


How can these people be loathsome to ALL mankind, when they are supposed to be part of mankind? This is why the all used there cannot be all,,,as in every single who ever lived and had the breath of life in them. Why? How could they be looking at them, for they would not even be there if everyone bows. So logically, it would mean ALL those who are left. Those who were cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb for the forgiveness of sins. ALL of those will bow, and confess Jesus Christ as King, the son of the Living God.

Again, we see it here as well.

Mal 4:1
"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and ALL the arrogant and EVERY evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."

Then we see the promise of the Savior in the very next verse, with a condition....but not for ALL

"But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

Tread down the wicked like ashes under our feet? We can see them? Well, this verse lines up with Isaiah 66:24.

I think the point you are missing is that the elect are resurrected first. They look at the carcasses of those who rebel. They reign for the 1000 years. Then the rest are resurrected.

[mb64282]

I like to think everyone will bow and everyone will go to heaven, I do sometimes wonder how people just flat out refuse to do what God says they have to do but his mercy is uncomprehendable. Man if there's one thing I can't stand though it is a Church without kneelers, drives me nuts. If you're going to kneel later why not start practicing now? I love kneelers, you see them less and less now though.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Well sometimes when confronted with a difficult verse we don't fully understand instead of putting aside our pride and admitting we don't know everything instead of studying we try to harmonize the verse with our feelings and growing but limited knowledge base about the bible to defend our own doctrines and beliefs and that is really not very productive as a Christian not to mention the damage that can cause.
Just admit you don't know everything and say, I will have to study on that and get back to you.

Just to clarify I notice you said, allegiance. I don't see all people swearing allegiance in that verse, the word is confess, the greek word for "confess" means "to acknowledge" or "agree"

I know Phazelwood commented on this too, but notice the wording in Isaiah 45:23 NASB, it specifically says "swear allegiance":

Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Seems pretty clear. The hebrew word there is shaba which means to swear or take an oath.

Furthermore:

Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The greek word there for confess means to:
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage

So here we see that everyone will:
- bow their knee
- confess his name as in swearing an oath of allegiance, professing openly and joyful celebration, giving praise to the Lord, as in a promise

For me, this destroys the doctrine of both eternal torment and annihilation - assuming you agree that these verses state everyone will do this.

What are your thoughts on this? How can this fit in with the doctrine of eternal torment or annihilation?

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Nikk

It will be everyone. Those destined for hell will bow, but not in reverence. Bowing just means you know who you are bowing to is of greater authority than you are.

How can this be? Who will not revere the Lord?

Rev 15:4 Who shall not reverence and glorify Your name, O Lord [giving You honor and praise in worship]? For You only are holy. All the nations shall come and pay homage and adoration to You, for Your just judgments (Your righteous sentences and deeds) have been made known and displayed.

Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.

Psalm 102:15 The nations will fear the name of the LORD, all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.



Furthermore:

Psalm 103:13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him

Psalm 147:11 the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love

Psalm 145:19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him;
he hears their cry and saves them.


God's plan of salvation for all is so clear, I don't know anyone can deny it given these verses. How do believers in eternal torment and annihilation explain these verses?

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by legoman

I know Phazelwood commented on this too, but notice the wording in Isaiah 45:23 NASB, it specifically says "swear allegiance":

Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

............
What are your thoughts on this? How can this fit in with the doctrine of eternal torment or annihilation?

That's interesting but where you and I differ on is the time period. I believe this to be the Kingdom age directed to believers not unbelievers, the believers who survived the tribulation period without accepting the mark; the unbelievers (people who died without repenting and those accepted the mark) are long gone Even though these believers swear allegiance which is confessing Jesus is Lord there will still be sin in the world and some will say it just in words since we see Satan coming back amassing an army among man for one final rebellion.

[legoman]

Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Understanding these two verses will answer several common arguments against Universal Salvation. For example:

How can God let someone into heaven if they reject him forever?
No one will reject God forever. These two verses tell us that.

But you have to confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved!
Yes, these two verses say everyone will do that.

But it won't be an honest confession!
Well no one can confess Jesus is Lord, unless the Holy spirit comes on them. Would the Holy spirit make someone lie?

But they will only bow out of force, they won't want to bow.
Actually these verses tell us all will bow a willing oath of loyalty - they will swear allegiance - and they will do it happily and joyfully.


But NOT EVERYONE WILL BOW AND CONFESS.

Well that is the point of this thread. But you will find yourself in a mess of contradiction if you try to make that claim. Some will say Isaiah 66:23-24 shows that it is not really all bowing. But Isaiah 66 is talking about a different event.


It really is good news for all people who ever existed.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

That's interesting but where you and I differ on is the time period. I believe this to be the Kingdom age directed to believers not unbelievers, the believers who survived the tribulation period without accepting the mark. Even though they swear allegiance which is confessing Jesus is Lord there will still be sin in the world and some will say it just in words since we see Satan coming back amassing an army among man for one final rebellion.

Ok fair enough. So you believe Isaiah 45:23 and Phil 2:9-11 are different events. So you don't really believe Isaiah 45:23 is every single individual who ever existed.

What about all confessing (openly, joyfully, with praise) in Phil 2:9-11? Is that every single individual who ever existed?

Actually I have a hard time seeing them as different events. Especially Romans 14:11 - it is a direct reference to Isaiah 45:23. Is Phil 2:9-11 different from Romans 14:11?

Perhaps we first need to establish that the 3 "bow and confess" verses are the same thing (Isa 45:23, Romans 14:11, Phil 2:11). Personally I think they are all talking about the same thing: ALL people bowing/confessing (swearing allegiance) to God.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by legoman

Ok fair enough. So you believe Isaiah 45:23 and Phil 2:9-11 are different events. So you don't really believe Isaiah 45:23 is every single individual who ever existed.

What about all confessing (openly, joyfully, with praise) in Phil 2:9-11? Is that every single individual who ever existed?

Actually I have a hard time seeing them as different events. Especially Romans 14:11 - it is a direct reference to Isaiah 45:23. Is Phil 2:9-11 different from Romans 14:11?

Perhaps we first need to establish that the 3 "bow and confess" verses are the same thing (Isa 45:23, Romans 14:11, Phil 2:11). Personally I think they are all talking about the same thing: ALL people bowing/confessing (swearing allegiance) to God.

Ro 14:11 for it is owritten~: Living am I', the Lord is saying, thatFor to Me shall |bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming~ *God!

"For it is written" I believe this is a reference to the old testament verses here.