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I agree with the two types of death. However I take the story of adam and eve very lightly. I don't believe for instance that God literally walked among them. No man has seen God. I believe he treated them as sons. Children often get in trouble and we try to steer them the right way... the adam and eve story.
No man has seen God?
"And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Exodus 33:23
"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." Exodus 33:11
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30
"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
God can be seen when the Holy Spirit "overshadows" you to protect your physical body from the brightness and glory that surrounds Heavenly Father, as happened with Mary at the conception of Jesus.
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1: 32,35
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the FATHER, full of grace and truth." John 1: 14
Obviously they could have believed the devil when he told them they would not die from the fruit because they lived almost 1000 years. Did they know they would die? not sure. Perhaps that was part of the knowledge. The part about them covering themselves is all about the spiritual. For it is the law that shows someone they are sinful. So in that way the physical death can be quickened by sin and the spiritual death can be quickened through sin. Thus both deaths are affected by sin.
Yes, I think Adam and Eve knew that the consequences of eating of the forbidden fruit would include being driven from the Garden of Eden and the eventual death of their physical bodies. I doubt that Father would have not told them that, it was very important for them to know when they weighed the choice to sin or not to sin.
It is my belief that prior to the fall Adam and Eve were innocent. They had not experienced evil or opposites, they had only lived in goodly circumstances with God the Father in His celestial world. Satan told them they were naked and they became ashamed, so they made aprons of fig leaves to cover their genitals. Those aprons feature prominently in many temple ceremonies today, Masonic and other mystical rites, etc.
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." Genesis 3: 7
I don't understand your last two sentences. Spiritual death, banishment from the presence of God the Father, came about because of original sin, the eating of the forbidden fruit. Physical death comes to all mortals regardless of their choices during mortality.
But seriously, I think that believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is absolutely crucial to understanding his mission and bearing testimony of him to non-Christians and doubting Christians alike.
Just because you and your LDS compatriots have convinced yourselves about what "resurrection" means (in your obsession with physicality . . . carnality) . . . you have no absolute basis for your arrogance about it. I understand LDS views THOROUGHLY and they do NOT comport with our valid understanding of scientific reality . . . my views do. You would have to believe that God would give us the ability to investigate and learn about reality in a disciplined way just to delude us and confuse us . . instead of aid us in clarifying His inspired messages to us. MY loving God would never do such a thing.
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If you cannot accept and bear firm testimony because the Holy Spirit has revealed that to you (or you cannot accept it on faith) that Jesus Christ was literally resurrected, his physical body and spirit body permanently melded into one tangible body with superhuman powers, then in my opinion you may as well just go along with atheists and others who say it's all a myth or someone removed his body from the tomb so it would appear to be a convincing tale, or he never really died, or whatever that denies his divinity and his atonement for all mankind.
More arrogance. If you cannot accept and bear firm testimony . . . (because you have not actually MET the consciousness of Jesus) . . . that your physical obsession is based on well-known psychological principles and is flawed and requires "supernatural and magical" nonsense to continue to believe it . . . then you need to develop your meditation and control of your autonomic functions sufficiently to actually enter deep meditation and meet Jesus's consciousness in the "end state" to remove all your confusion and rationalizations.
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I bear you my personal testimony because God has confirmed that to me in an undeniable manner that JESUS CHRIST DIED AND WAS RESURRECTED THREE DAYS LATER!
I bear you my personal testimony because I HAVE met the consciousness of Jesus (many times) in deep meditation that there is NOTHING physical about Him. He was reborn as Spirit . . as we all will be . . . that "which is born of Spirit is Spirit."You are using the precepts of primitive men who feared spirits and needed to be reassured with "milk" about what "resurrection" is.
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Because of his atonement and resurrection, everyone who has ever lived on this earth and ever will will eventually become immortal resurrected beings themselves, he gives that to us FREE. Having a resurrected body will move us closer to being grown up and much more like our Heavenly Parent in whose image and likeness we were made.
There was nothing to ""ATONE" for . . . God does NOT punish or require payment from His children for anything (certainly not for eating some "fruit") . . . only that they mature spiritually (and put aside all carnal and physical concerns . . "childish things") to be reborn as Spirit in His image and likeness.
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Because of his atonement and resurrection, it is possible for everyone who has ever lived on this earth and ever will, even though all have sinned and all are unprofitable servants, to potentially receive eternal life and exaltation, to KNOW God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent, to live forever with our Heavenly Father and billions of other exalted beings in the highest of heavens.
Right . . . as you wish . . . if it motivates your "love of God and each other." I KNOW that because of His rebirth as Spirit from a human body . . . He has provided the connection for ALL of us to "resonate" with God's Holy Spirit in love (the "key" frequency).
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Those things I personally know to be true, having found out for myself with much fasting and sincere and humble prayer, as can any of God's children who do that and also do their best to keep God's commandments and to love and serve others. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
Those things I have explained I absolutely KNOW to be true from decades of "asking" Jesus directly during deep meditation.
Just because you and your LDS compatriots have convinced yourselves about what "resurrection" means (in your obsession with physicality . . . carnality) . . . you have no absolute basis for your arrogance about it....
It was not my intention to be arrogant, just to share my beliefs and some of the blessings God has bestowed upon me.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10: 27
Yes, I think Adam and Eve knew that the consequences of eating of the forbidden fruit would include being driven from the Garden of Eden and the eventual death of their physical bodies. I doubt that Father would have not told them that, it was very important for them to know when they weighed the choice to sin or not to sin.
I disagree. The fact that they ate the fruit, were given the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN is when they realized there was sin. From then on they could distinguish sin and not sin. If you have no knowledge of sin (before eating the fruit) then you cannot see the difference between good and evil.
But that is another topic in itself....
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I don't understand your last two sentences. Spiritual death, banishment from the presence of God the Father, came about because of original sin, the eating of the forbidden fruit. Physical death comes to all mortals regardless of their choices during mortality.
Exactly. All men die a physical death regardless of their choices in life.
I disagree. The fact that they ate the fruit, were given the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN is when they realized there was sin. From then on they could distinguish sin and not sin. If you have no knowledge of sin (before eating the fruit) then you cannot see the difference between good and evil.
I define "sin" as being disobedient to God, regardless of what He asks us to do or not do.
Adam and Eve were disobedient, so by that definition they did sin.
But was it evil for them to do something that provided all of God's myriad spirit childen an opportunity to get a physical body and an experience in an environment where they were confronted with opposites and had to make choices, including moral choices with potentially eternal consequences as they grew and moved closer to being like their Heavenly Parent is, or less like Him?
I don't think that God creates evil, He just provides a temporary environment where evil is possible, so that His children can have opportunities to learn and grow.
Last edited by justamere10; 09-25-2009 at 01:56 PM..
I define "sin" as being disobedient to God, regardless of what He asks us to do or not do.
Adam and Eve were disobedient, so by that definition they did sin.
I was simply talking about Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
So perhaps without the knowledge of sin they really didn't know it was a sin.
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Fig leaves and aprons.
