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Those are just words out of a translation that you post with your assertion of intepretation. You will claim that is just the straight word of God. But then you make a good case that the bible contradicts itself, so knock yourself out.
It changes nothing concerning what God does.
God sent Jesus on a mission to save the world, I believe he will be 100% successful at it.
You either believe he will or you believe he won't or can't.
Also I'd like to add that we as humans often use words like eternal (without beginning or end) in phrases such as "I am eternally grateful" now this is a non-literal use of the word but yet the word means the same. Obviously the gratitude had a beginning and one cannot say for sure it is without end. It is understood that it is a connotation. Sometimes we say these words (eternal or infinite) indicating a very long time or to enhance the sentence, but that does not make the word in the sentence to mean forever without end or beginning. The absolute use of the word eternity is in fact inapplicable to most things that humans deal with as we are finite. There are infinite possibilities!
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they(orthodox and fundamentalist Christians) say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus-
The false doctrine of eternal torture causes unbelievers to slander the name of God ...
Yes because Evil will be abolished and the world will be saved, the above quote is actually a strawman to what I just said. It is a strawman when the truth is that Jesus Saves 100% of the world in his successful mission as the Saviour of it.
However towards a doctrine where some men are captured forever by the evil one the above quote is a proper logical refutation to the doctrines of men that portray a God who created a realm where wickedness always survives.
Whether it is claimed that men put themselves there, whether it is claimed that God created them for that specific purpose, whether God puts them there as a result of consequenses, even if he anihillates them, it is all the same. Evil has caused God to be incomplete in the mission he sent his son on.
Now, as humans, we can say such things as "Two out of three ain't bad" We can cheer if we achieved a 99% success at something when all the chips were down.
But the Almighty, this "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" ALMIGHTY simply doesn't give up, ever.
While other disputes can take place concerning why God allowed whatever, that is a separate issue.
That issue becomes something different if God makes it right for 100% of his creation.
All the postings, all the critics, all the objecting, it comes down to a simple belief.
Either someone believes God will be 100% successful in the mission he sent his Son on, or not.
I don't need to look at other translations... thanks anyway.
I would (if I were you) honestly investigate who you're depending on for your definitions on.
Our differences is, you limit aion in its diffinition, rather than aion historically was used beyond that one (historically based on other writings of the time.). It also was used with the meaning of eternal, forever ect. That is why most English translations have used it.
To place it as a RC thing isn't accurate. It goes back to Paul's time when he warns that false teaching was already brewing
2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
Galatians 2:4
This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
1 Timothy 1:3
[ Warning Against False Teachers of the Law ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
2 Peter 2:1
[ FalseTeachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Peter makes the same parrell about false prophets with the current false teachers, what is there reward?
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can claim aion isn't forever. Your claim will only last an age anyway.
"All means all" ..............."All your words are true" Psalm 119:160.
I think if I wanted people to know the severity of something I would use facetious word use such as "this dentist appointment is torture" or "I have a million things to do." Well torture is not to be taken literally nor do I have a million things to do. Also, my home is your home means that it is not their possession but that they should feel at home. Words are ever-changing. Their meaning changes with expression, inflection, and context. That is why this book, the bible, was much more effective in the oral than in the written. After all, it was meant for those to whom it was spoken.
I think if I wanted people to know the severity of something I would use facetious word use such as "this dentist appointment is torture" or "I have a million things to do." Well torture is not to be taken literally nor do I have a million things to do. Also, my home is your home means that it is not their possession but that they should feel at home. Words are ever-changing. Their meaning changes with expression, inflection, and context. That is why this book, the bible, was much more effective in the oral than in the written. After all, it was meant for those to whom it was spoken.
The insufficiently known fact about communication is that less than 7% of the meaning and import of any communication is contained in the written portion. That means tha 93% of what is intended to be communicated must come through other non-verbal channels (what precedes it, context, what follows it,tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions, accompanying gestures, history, audience, culture and expectations, tradition, societal status, etc., etc.). To rely on a cross-cultural modern multiple translation reading of ONLY the words gives one only a 7% chance or less of understanding what was intended. And yet these fundamentalist literalists acquire such unbridled self-assurance and arrogance about the truth of what they have only READ . . . and then attack everyone else because they do not know the truth. It boggles the mind.
The insufficiently know fact of communication is that less than 7% of the meaning and import of any communication is contained in the written portion. That means tha 93% of what is intended to be communicated must come through other non-verbal channels (what precedes it, context, what follows it,tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions, accompanying gestures, history, audience, culture and expectations, tradition, societal status, etc., etc.). To rely on a cross-cultural modern multiple translation reading of ONLY the words gives one only a 7% chance or less of understanding what was intended. And yet these fundamentalist literalists acquire such unbridled self-assurance and arrogance about the truth of what they have only READ . . . and then attack everyone else because they do not know the truth. It boggles the mind.
Yes! When interpreting the Bible you really must take the whole thing, derive an ultimate message, study the culture at the time it was spoken, contrast that to what we know today of language usage, add to it what you personally know of heavenly forces, then come out with something that still may or may not be what the author intended...
LOL... NEVER is there ALWAYS a correct answer. I just love absolutes
Carry on, when it's all said and done, make sure you are able to lay in the beds that you have made for yourselves, be it, whatever it is.................Final Answer!
"It's faulty translation"....only when it doesn't suite you.....pathetic
An honest look at the greek meanings? ...... good suggestion, why don't you?
Take a look at this....
Here is the OT verse most commonly used to prove everlasting punishment. Notice the two words translated "everlasting shame" from the LXX
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
Daniel 12:2 kai polloi twn kaqeudontwn en tw platei thV ghV anasthsontai oi men eiV zwhn aiwnion oi de eiV oneidismon oi de eiV diasporan kai aiscunhn aiwnion
This passage contains the exact same two greek words, but in this passage, those who endure "everlasting shame" for their sin are going to be delivered by God and forget that shame.
Isaiah 54:4 mh fobou oti kathscunqhV mhde entraphV oti wneidisqhV oti aiscunhn aiwnion epilhsh kai oneidoV thV chreiaV sou ou mh mnhsqhsh
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy former shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.5 For it is the Lord that made thee; the Lord of hosts is his name: and he that delivered thee, he is the God of Israel, and shall be called so by the whole earth.
Here is the OT verse most commonly used to prove everlasting punishment. Notice the two words translated "everlasting shame" from the LXX
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
Daniel 12:2 kai polloi twn kaqeudontwn en tw platei thV ghV anasthsontai oi men eiV zwhn aiwnion oi de eiV oneidismon oi de eiV diasporan kai aiscunhn aiwnion
This passage contains the exact same two greek words, but in this passage, those who endure "everlasting shame" for their sin are going to be delivered by God and forget that shame.
Isaiah 54:4 mh fobou oti kathscunqhV mhde entraphV oti wneidisqhV oti aiscunhn aiwnion epilhsh kai oneidoV thV chreiaV sou ou mh mnhsqhsh
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy former shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.5 For it is the Lord that made thee; the Lord of hosts is his name: and he that delivered thee, he is the God of Israel, and shall be called so by the whole earth.
Wow that is cool, didn't know that TKC. Question though: I thought the OT was in Hebrew, is this a greek translation of the OT?
Carry on, when it's all said and done, make sure you are able to lay in the beds that you have made for yourselves, be it, whatever it is.................Final Answer!
Fear mongering ... You will be judged in the manner that ye judge. You are the one who should be careful. You can't control us with you violence or your threats of torture. Wake up ... Its spiritual extortion and Violence.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2009 at 07:28 PM..
Here is the OT verse most commonly used to prove everlasting punishment. Notice the two words translated "everlasting shame" from the LXX
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
Daniel 12:2 kai polloi twn kaqeudontwn en tw platei thV ghV anasthsontai oi men eiV zwhn aiwnion oi de eiV oneidismon oi de eiV diasporan kai aiscunhn aiwnion
This passage contains the exact same two greek words, but in this passage, those who endure "everlasting shame" for their sin are going to be delivered by God and forget that shame.
Isaiah 54:4 mh fobou oti kathscunqhV mhde entraphV oti wneidisqhV oti aiscunhn aiwnion epilhsh kai oneidoV thV chreiaV sou ou mh mnhsqhsh
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy former shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.5 For it is the Lord that made thee; the Lord of hosts is his name: and he that delivered thee, he is the God of Israel, and shall be called so by the whole earth.
The evidences just keep piling up!
Much to the chagrin of the "Christian" eternal torture terrorists!
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