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Brainwashing indeed. Goes hand in hand with deception. The bible plainly declares the whole world is deceived at one time or another, but everyone is always like: "NO, no, its not me, I'm not deceived".
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IT IF YOU WERE DECEIVED? You wouldn't. That's why its called deception!
Indeed ... And people who are deceived cant choose the right path can they? How can someone choose to believe in Christ if they are deceived? IS it really a free choice if people are allowed to be deceived? More fundamentalist contradiction.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2009 at 01:13 PM..
Iron,
All means all....your words, your definition
"All your words are true" Psalm 119:160......
Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.....
"It's faulty translation"....only when it doesn't suite you.....pathetic
An honest look at the Greek meanings? ...... good suggestion, why don't you?
No .. you are wrong. I know you cherish the concept of eternal torture, but it is a myth. Aion means age, not eternity. Olam doesnt mean eternal either, it means beyond the horizon. You are just decieved by the roman catholic church and the pagans who took it over after rome made Christianity the state religion. It was invented by evil men to control the laity. You are simply deceived by cunningly concieved fables. God desires to save all men. God is not willing that any should be lost. God is able to save all men. And god will accomplish his good pleasure which is to be the savior of all men, especially those that believe. I have already posted time and again evidences for the fact that aion cannot mean eternity, but even if it did it would not change the fact that god is the savior of all men, and not just potentially.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2009 at 02:26 PM..
<snip> Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Yes ET doctrine hangs almost exclusively on the translation of aionios and olam as "everlasting".
Here says, Jesus came to restore and repair the everlasting wastes which are the result of God's vengance against sin.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old [greek aionios, hebrew olam] wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Here is the greek LXX of verse 61 above showing that the wastes are aionios i.e. everlasting (supposedly).
61:4 και οικοδομησουσιν ερημους αιωνιας εξηρημωμενας προτερον εξαναστησουσιν και καινιουσιν πολεις ερημους εξηρημωμενας εις γενεας
Yes, Sodom & Gommorah are the example for all who are like them. Here is the judgment of some who are like them. Interesting that it is not everlasting.
Deuteronomy 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. 34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. 37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
God wiped out Sodom with eternal fire. Here is God's promise to restore Sodom and take away their captivity.
Ezekiel 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
Ezekiel 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them
Ezekiel 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Ezekiel 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Here is God judging His people with consequences that last "forever" (olam) yet it only lasts until God pours out His spirit upon them.
Isaiah 32:14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; 15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Wow Verna, I go for a night on the town with my friends and i'm assaulted for "copping" out. I have a real life ya' know ... I cant spend every waking moment on city-data proving the insanity and false logic of organized fundamentalist and orthodox "Christianity".
" 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."
Well than ... We can see that you are guilty of what you say I do. I don't have to give any examples, but i will name two instances which stick out the most just for the heck of it ...
You say all things (Col 1:20) doesn't mean all things, all doesn't mean all etc (1Cr 15:22)...
You are insane if you thought i wouldn't come back and show your error. So God isn't protecting you anymore now that i have come back to destroy your little victory post? ... What were you thinking?
I just wanted to say i believe that the dead in 1 Peter 4:6 is another reference to the spirits in 1 Peter 3:20 ...
I could be wrong ...
Even if i am wrong, looking at 1pe 4:6 as speaking of the fact the the gospel is preached to the dead so that they might live according to God "in the spirit"(when they die) even though they will be "judged in the flesh" according to men. If the dead here means spiritually dead, then there is a comparison being made between the spiritually dead and the spiritually alive. The word "also" having a significance which differentiates or implies an extra sense to the phrase. It implies that the gospel was preached "to the living"(this is what is implied by "also") and "ALSO" the dead.
"For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
Question #1
Is anyone "alive in the spirit" before they hear the gospel and Believe on Christ?
question #2
If we have to believe in Christ to be born again and spiritually quickened or made alive in the spirit, then why is the word "also" used in that sentence? Who else is the gospel preached to by comparison if dead in that sentence means spiritually dead. Were we not all spiritually dead before we heard the good news and believed and were baptized in the spirit?
Humble yourself and look at other translations and study the word aion honestly.
Mark 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment
I don't need to look at other translations... thanks anyway.
I would (if I were you) honestly investigate who you're depending on for your definitions on.
Our differences is, you limit aion in its diffinition, rather than aion historically was used beyond that one (historically based on other writings of the time.). It also was used with the meaning of eternal, forever ect. That is why most English translations have used it.
To place it as a RC thing isn't accurate. It goes back to Paul's time when he warns that false teaching was already brewing
2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
Galatians 2:4
This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
1 Timothy 1:3
[ Warning Against False Teachers of the Law ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
2 Peter 2:1
[ FalseTeachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Peter makes the same parrell about false prophets with the current false teachers, what is there reward?
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can claim aion isn't forever. Your claim will only last an age anyway.
"All means all" ..............."All your words are true" Psalm 119:160.
Psalm 119:160 All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
All means all...right?
Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
Matthew 18:8
..... It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 25:30
"And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"
Matthew 25:41-46
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Those are just words out of a translation that you post with your assertion of intepretation. You will claim that is just the straight word of God. But then you make a good case that the bible contradicts itself, so knock yourself out.
It changes nothing concerning what God does.
God sent Jesus on a mission to save the world, I believe he will be 100% successful at it.
You either believe he will or you believe he won't or can't.
I don't need to look at other translations... thanks anyway.
I would (if I were you) honestly investigate who you're depending on for your definitions on.
Our differences is, you limit aion in its diffinition, rather than aion historically was used beyond that one (historically based on other writings of the time.). It also was used with the meaning of eternal, forever ect. That is why most English translations have used it.
To place it as a RC thing isn't accurate. It goes back to Paul's time when he warns that false teaching was already brewing
2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
Galatians 2:4
This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
1 Timothy 1:3
[ Warning Against False Teachers of the Law ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
2 Peter 2:1
[ FalseTeachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Peter makes the same parrell about false prophets with the current false teachers, what is there reward?
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can claim aion isn't forever. Your claim will only last an age anyway.
"All means all" ..............."All your words are true" Psalm 119:160.
FACT #1
Universal reconciliation was the most widely held understanding of the gospel in the first six centuries of the church.
Quote:
The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, p. 96
^ abThe Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, p. 96; Retrieved April 29, 2007. “In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
* Seymour, Charles. A Theodicy of Hell. p. 25. Springer (2000). ISBN 0792363647.
* Ludlow, Morwenna. Universal Salvation: eschatology in the thought of Gregory of Nyssa and Karl Rahner. Pp. 1-2. Oxford University Press (2000). ISBN 0198270224.
Fact #2
Eternal Torture was not declared orthodox teaching until the 5th century when a form of apocatastasis was declared heterodoxy ...
Quote:
Von Balthasar, Hans Urs & Greer, Rowan A. Origen. Pg 3. Paulist Press (1979). ISBN 0809121980.
It was Augustine of Hippo, a former gnostic of the order of Manichean's who championed the false doctrine of eternal torment in the fifth century. He did not speak Greek, but Latin. He traded his Gnosticism for the state sponsored brand of Christianity and he brought with him his Manichean views of evil(evil and the torment of the wicked by evil are co-eternal with God in the Manichean dualistic belief), only to adjust them slightly in order to meet the standards of the orthodox traditions of the time. That is when the concept of eternal damnation took over the Christian church.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2009 at 03:23 PM..
Those are just words out of a translation that you post with your assertion of intepretation. You will claim that is just the straight word of God. But then you make a good case that the bible contradicts itself, so knock yourself out.
It changes nothing concerning what God does.
God sent Jesus on a mission to save the world, I believe he will be 100% successful at it.
You either believe he will or you believe he won't or can't.
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they(orthodox and fundamentalist Christians) say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus-
Better yet, why will it be given a place to exist for ever?
The false doctrine of eternal torture causes unbelievers to slander the name of God ...
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