Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Matthew 16:15-20 CLV He is saying to them, "Now you, who are you saying that I am? (16) Now answering, Simon Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (17) Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but My Father Who is in the heavens." (18) Now I, also, am saying to you that you are Peter, and on this rock will I be building My ecclesia, and the gates of the unseen shall not be prevailing against it." (19) I will be giving you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth, shall be those having been loosed in the heavens." (20) Then He cautions the disciples that they may be saying to no one that He is the Christ.
He builds His church on the truth He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
He gives the keys of the kingdom of the heavens to Peter.
archbishop Kenrick of the Catholic Church agrees with this in that the majority of church fathers taught it was Peter's avowell that Jesus is the Christ . . . etc. that was the rock the church was built upon.
You can make your text red, but in the end, he said You are Kepha, and on this kepha, I will build my church. How can suddenly, he be talking about one rock, then BAMB for no verbal reasoning, he's talking about a different rock. That doesn't make sense. If I say, this is my table, and on this table, i will place my car keys. Am I putting my keys on my table, or some other table? It is the same table, it is the same rock.
Why are you making it more difficult than it has to be? Christ decides what is Good and bad, Christ holds the keys. Power(or the keys) is not given to a statement, or only to Simon Peter, but to those who believe what Simon Peters statement says ... AS no one can believe and confess that Jesus is Christ and the son of God unless it is by the power of the spirit ...
That's not what the bible says, Jesus says, I give YOU the keys. Is Jesus talking in third person or something? He was talking to Peter, he gave Peter the keys. You really have to twist a scripture to believe what you just said.
How hard is it to understand? Why cant you comprehend what we are saying? Of course no pimps or prostitutes or murderers will be in the kingdom of Heaven ... But what does that mean? Does that mean if you were ever a pimp, or a prostitute, or a murderer, or a sorcerer that you will never be able to enter the kingdom? NO! It means that you must be renewed/reborn in the spirit before you can enter the kingdom. Or else Mary Magdeline wouldn't be allowed in, or King David, Or Solomon, or the apostle Paul for that matter ...
So...what you are saying is true....here on earth...those renewed in the spirit will be graced with that reward....this I agree with. Mary Magdelane is just one of those many cases as we have seen.
Quote:
Gods judgments teach righteousness, they purify the ones that are so judged. They are remedial according to scripture ... God doesnt punish people punitively like men do, his purpose in judging humanity is in order to reconcile them, and humble them, and sanctify them, and to destroy their carnal natures.
This I agree with...Ninevah is a prime example.
Quote:
Why do you keep throwing out this strawman argument? You say you are not judging people, yet if someone doesn't believe the way you do, or have the same religion, you believe in your heart and have stated with your mouth(or hands when you write) that they will be eternally tormented.
The scripture says they will Ironmaw...not you or I.
Quote:
You say that God will not forgive them or purify them, but that he will be eternally angry with them and cast them off for ever into a flaming lake.
That is what the scripture says, if they reject Him....this is the destination of their soul. Are you so oblivious to the scripture, that you have to apply Platonic thought to the spirit, that God is the creator of souls, or they have pre-existed, as Plato wrote?
Quote:
We were all at one time in the flesh and not in the spirit, and while we were yet enemies of God he reconciled us to himself, and by the power of his spirit he came into us and worked within us to be conforming to the mind of Christ. That is aionios life, to come to a knowledge of Christ and the father who sent him while in this life/world/age. Those that are not ELECTED to be a part of the bride/body of Christ do not know and will not know until the end has come ... That is where your full preterist fallacies stand in the way of your ability to understand the eventual reconciliation of all to God.
Why do you have to bring Preterism into this...this is about your interpretation of AIONOS, which you and others here in the forum have erred in doing so. You have gone outside of scripture to prove your case with AIONIOS, when in fact, all over the secular world, AIONOS had various meanings, including an eternal one. This my brother, you present, the strawman.
Quote:
We have shown in multiple places in scripture where the bible talks about Gods fiery judgments being for the purpose of purification and cleansing of the carnal nature.
On earth...yes. Not after life. Not after the flesh is terminated.
Quote:
And we have shown in multiple places in scripture that says that God WILL NOT be angry forever or CAST OFF forever, but that his mercies WILL last throughout the ages until the very end, when all things are finally at one with him ... You refuse to believe this because you are not willing to accept that God is able and willing to save everyone and transform them into new creations so that he can finally be all in all. You think that devalues your service to God here now in this life and in this world. The reason why you think that can only be because you don't truly appreciate what it means to serve God.
I beg to differ. You , and others in UR, have blaspemed the work of Christ, and allowed those that go about their life without a care of Jesus, to be allowed into the kingdom, after some "purification" process? Based on what? Brimstone? All you have to go on with Brimstone is Brimstone...nothing after that is said about it.
Sodom and Gomorrah...where is that city now? Gone...dead, disappeared.
That is all you have concerning Brimstone...nothing else...what you, and others have done, is add meaning to the meaning to scriptures that isn't there. SOLA SCRIPTURA Ironmaw...and that is what will happen when everyone else is thrown in there. Gone, dead, disappeared in regards to the kingdom. Your argument my brother, is a strawman at it's best.
Quote:
It is not something we do to merit his forgiveness or salvation, it is something we do because we want to, because we love him who first loved us even when we were his enemies. In my opinion you don't understand what it truly means to have the gift of salvation now in this life/world, because you think you are being cheated somehow by the fact that God will even save those who do not serve him in this life because they have not been chosen by him and made co-heirs of his kingdom.
This above is so contradictory to the scripture, I bid you beware of these very words, along with your other friends of UR, because you are flatly wrong. Christ came to save all mankind, but those who enter the kingdom, are pre-selected, pre-determined, and pre-destined. And there are those, like the Babylonians, and the Pharoah of Egypt, that served His purpose, yet they, stand outside of the city gates like the rest of them that denied Him. Christ preached the Gospel to Hades already - 1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6, and those who believed, were raised up with Him, and those that did not, weren't. Your case and view of the scripture have MINIMIZED Christ's atoning work.
Quote:
We are the firstfruits of the harvest of the whole world. We are blessed to be saved now, and to know the life of God now in this life in this world in this age. And because you all cant understand this you are desiring that everyone else in the world be tormented for ever and suffer pain for eternity, as if that somehow makes your efforts here and now worth it ... In my opinion that is spiteful, and violent, and hateful, and vindictive, and greedy, and malicious ... And you people believe that God is the same way.
Whoever said we desired this? It is not our place to want or desire the suffering of those who perish, the very reason for us to heal the nations from this fate.
Quote:
According to the false doctrine of eternal torment and everlasting sin and death and evil, the power of evil and sin and death is far more potent and have by far the greater victory over Gods creation then Gods power of goodness and love and mercy has ... That false doctrine makes the sacrifice of Christ of no effect, or at most of very little effect. You people are saying the power of evil is greater than the power of Good, and that the power of the lie out shines the power of the truth. You guys cant even see that you are proclaiming Satan and evil has the real victory over Gods creation, and that God must be satisfied with only a very small portion of his creation being saved from the power of sin and death. You all make God out to be either impotent, or a monster, and you cant even see it ...
Be careful Ironmaw, your accusations and judgments are like those who you seem to oppose, and puts you in the same boat as the rest of them. Universalism is just another failed attempt of eschatological misinterpretation to the word of God, and will, just like every other dispensational misrepresentation of the word of God, disappear in time.
It is a lie. It gives the atheist and every other pagan religion that denies Christ and His work, a seat into the kingdom. This kind of thought will be judged, and judged accordingly, for it is Christ and His work that has redeemed us, and it is those who are regenerated (do you know what that term even means?) and profess that salvation and redemption, as we are slaves to the flesh, and that ransom was paid for us slaves to the flesh, and denying that ransom will result in inaccessibility into the gates to the kingdom. Deal with it brother, but Revelation is the unveiling of ALL PROPHECY in the scripture, and Revelation STRICTLY says that there are those inside and outside of the gates. Which one do you choose?
Inside or outside? Your choice in this life, as an ἄνθρωπος 1 Tim 2:4-6
The above scripture says nothing of the πνεῦμα or the ψυχή, but only of ἄνθρωπος, and that my friend, is the flesh, the man, and the choice must be made there. This and all the scriptures, that UR misinterprets, regards "all and mankind", and says nothing of the soul or spirit, and that there is redemption after that flesh ceases.
Quote:
However, i have faith in the living God, that he will one day work in you to understand this good news which some of us here proclaim, which is that Christ died for the whole world, and is the savior of all peple, especially those that believe ...
He already has brother, and God has strictly led me to the scriptures and inspiration that the Universalist theology is in error and a lie.
Satan's deception is absolutely brilliant. He has so totally corrupted and twisted the Good News of God's real message of LOVE that it requires believers to accept the attributes of Satan AS IF they were the attributes of God. If the consciousness I encountered in meditation had the attributes ET'ers seem to not just accept but adamantly defend in their God . . . I would not have wanted to have ANYTHING to do with such a monstrous being!
All the blasphemy and satanic teaching is to be found among those who believe in ET. The real Satanists are those who perpetuate this ghastly and evil doctrine to corrupt as many believers in Christ as they can. We cannot love God and each other while supporting and fearing such a vile and evil doctrine . . . and that is the coup de gras. . . the "state of mind" of everyone who believes in ET is tainted and insufficiently loving to resonate with Jesus, IMO. Satan wins.
So...what you are saying is true....here on earth...those renewed in the spirit will be graced with that reward....this I agree with. Mary Magdelane is just one of those many cases as we have seen.
This I agree with...Ninevah is a prime example.
The scripture says they will Ironmaw...not you or I.
That is what the scripture says, if they reject Him....this is the destination of their soul. Are you so oblivious to the scripture, that you have to apply Platonic thought to the spirit, that God is the creator of souls, or they have pre-existed, as Plato wrote?
Why do you have to bring Preterism into this...this is about your interpretation of AIONOS, which you and others here in the forum have erred in doing so. You have gone outside of scripture to prove your case with AIONIOS, when in fact, all over the secular world, AIONOS had various meanings, including an eternal one. This my brother, you present, the strawman.
On earth...yes. Not after life. Not after the flesh is terminated.
I beg to differ. You , and others in UR, have blaspemed the work of Christ, and allowed those that go about their life without a care of Jesus, to be allowed into the kingdom, after some "purification" process? Based on what? Brimstone? All you have to go on with Brimstone is Brimstone...nothing after that is said about it.
Sodom and Gomorrah...where is that city now? Gone...dead, disappeared.
That is all you have concerning Brimstone...nothing else...what you, and others have done, is add meaning to the meaning to scriptures that isn't there. SOLA SCRIPTURA Ironmaw...and that is what will happen when everyone else is thrown in there. Gone, dead, disappeared in regards to the kingdom. Your argument my brother, is a strawman at it's best.
This above is so contradictory to the scripture, I bid you beware of these very words, along with your other friends of UR, because you are flatly wrong. Christ came to save all mankind, but those who enter the kingdom, are pre-selected, pre-determined, and pre-destined. And there are those, like the Babylonians, and the Pharoah of Egypt, that served His purpose, yet they, stand outside of the city gates like the rest of them that denied Him. Christ preached the Gospel to Hades already - 1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6, and those who believed, were raised up with Him, and those that did not, weren't. Your case and view of the scripture have MINIMIZED Christ's atoning work.
Whoever said we desired this? It is not our place to want or desire the suffering of those who perish, the very reason for us to heal the nations from this fate.
Be careful Ironmaw, your accusations and judgments are like those who you seem to oppose, and puts you in the same boat as the rest of them. Universalism is just another failed attempt of eschatological misinterpretation to the word of God, and will, just like every other dispensational misrepresentation of the word of God, disappear in time.
It is a lie. It gives the atheist and every other pagan religion that denies Christ and His work, a seat into the kingdom. This kind of thought will be judged, and judged accordingly, for it is Christ and His work that has redeemed us, and it is those who are regenerated (do you know what that term even means?) and profess that salvation and redemption, as we are slaves to the flesh, and that ransom was paid for us slaves to the flesh, and denying that ransom will result in inaccessibility into the gates to the kingdom. Deal with it brother, but Revelation is the unveiling of ALL PROPHECY in the scripture, and Revelation STRICTLY says that there are those inside and outside of the gates. Which one do you choose?
Inside or outside? Your choice in this life, as an ἄνθρωπος 1 Tim 2:4-6
The above scripture says nothing of the πνεῦμα or the ψυχή, but only of ἄνθρωπος, and that my friend, is the flesh, the man, and the choice must be made there. This and all the scriptures, that UR misinterprets, regards "all and mankind", and says nothing of the soul or spirit, and that there is redemption after that flesh ceases.
He already has brother, and God has strictly led me to the scriptures and inspiration that the Universalist theology is in error and a lie.
Believe what ever you will ... You are deceived by the traditions of men and their manipulation of the texts to support their theocratic agendas. As of now, your heart is hardened and you cannot accept the true message of the good news of the salvation of all. So be it ... One day you will understand.
MysticPHD, Satan has already been defeated. Many, many, many years ago...and I thought you supported Preterism......the truth comes out, finally. His influence is still around today, obviously in the UR paradigm, the lie at its fullest, sprung from the father of lies, but he himself, is burning in the lake of fire, the burning flame.
Secondly, I have never supported the ET, ES, UR or anything else for that matter.
The issue here really is this, what does the scripture say?
It says that there are those inside, and there are those outside. The inability to address this not only bears fruit to the UR paradigm, but it also shows their lack of accepting what the scriptrue really teaches, and forces them to go beyond it, reach into their flesh, and come up with an answer.
What I find interesting as well, is the UR paradigm fight against the doctrine of men, when in fact, they support the doctrine of the UR fatherhood to the church and secularism, more so than they do the scripture itself, based on the scripture alone.
I also find unnerving, is the reality of why I can get along with folks like Mike, Verna Perry, Miss Shawn 2828, my best friends and family, and many other here and there, even Brian Simmons at the Anti Preterist Blog, that all support Dispensationalism to the fullest, and we can all have a Christ edifying conversation about the scriptures and the word of God, but when I disagree with the UR paradigm, it is nothing but hate mongering and spiteful words, stone throwing, and the inability to address the scriptures being questioned along with the failed interpretations of its premise?
The tree bears its fruit, and the fruit is the nectar of their teaching.
Unversalism is a teaching made up from its own rules and imposed onto the word of God.
It is a lie.
The fact of the matter is here is that everyone is saying what God is going to do with mankind.
Who on Earth and Heaven gives any of you the right to decide what God is going to do with the soul of mankind after he dies?
You are all out of your league here, and are stepping into the garden of Eden and taking a bite from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You are all guilty of the same sin that cursed mankind in the first place.
Leave these decisions up to God.
Serve Him, Fear Him, Love Him, and believe that Christ died for each and every one of you, and teach that message of Hope, so that He can take a hold and regenerate that lost sheep wandering astray in the woods all by himself.
That, my brothers and sisters, is worth every one of our souls from the beginning to end, and that alone was worth it to Christ, as He plainly stated in the scriptures.
Luke 15:4-6 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it: And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Get with the program UR. The scripture never ERRS.
You will mature someday to recognize that it is never loving to blackmail or threaten anyone into loving and obeying you . . . God or no . . . that is per se EVIL! There is only one entity for whom that paradigm fits . . . and it isn't Jesus and certainly not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
You will mature someday to recognize that it is never loving to blackmail or threaten anyone into loving and obeying you . . . God or no . . . that is per se EVIL! There is only one entity for whom that paradigm fits . . . and it isn't Jesus and certainly not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
Who is blackmailing or who is threatening here? Another accusation from a Universalist......such is the case always....You are way out of line Mystic...you add to and take away from the scriptures constantly...I see it...everyone sees it here but your UR crowd....you will have to answer for that one day you know....too bad you can never back up your claims with the scriptures, no matter how hard you try, you always fail with your New Age jargon.....it bears your real fruit........one day you will lose your immaturity and realize that the apostles aren't savages.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
