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I provided a scripture which shows people who have died can still be saved ...
Where? 2 Peter? That was a past event as I showed you in 1 Peter
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
And you used Romans 14 for your basis:
Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Which is;
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
God will judge the world through Christ. The bowing of the knee to him, and the confession made with the tongue, are but outward expressions of inward adoration and praise. Every knee and every tongue, either freely or by force.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The spiritual death, the one Adam received after he took that fateful bite.
Those who take that fateful bite now will experience the same thing.
What you and others fail to understand is the depth and gravity of the book of Revelation, and that it is the unveiling of all the prophets, their prophecies and it is the unveiling of Jesus Christ Himself. What is written in Revelation is set in stone, and what is written is that these things will transpire onto those who reject Him. What is so hard in grasping this?
According to your beliefs, what happens to infants that die during birth, or shortly thereafter?
Are you kidding me? Do infants sin? This is irrelevant and a typical trap made by a Universalist. You people are beyond the scope of reality.
Let me be plain and forthright. UR decides what God will do to men after they die. I do not. I leave that up to God. You are taking a bite from the tree of Good and Evil like Adam did, and playing God.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-28-2009 at 12:52 PM..
Where? 2 Peter? That was a past event as I showed you in 1 Peter
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
And you used Romans 14 for your basis:
Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Which is;
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
God will judge the world through Christ. The bowing of the knee to him, and the confession made with the tongue, are but outward expressions of inward adoration and praise. Every knee and every tongue, either freely or by force.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The spiritual death, the one Adam received after he took that fateful bite.
Those who take that fateful bite now will experience the same thing.
What you and others fail to understand is the depth and gravity of the book of Revelation, and that it is the unveiling of all the prophets, their prophecies and it is the unveiling of Jesus Christ Himself. What is written in Revelation is set in stone, and what is written is that these things will transpire onto those who reject Him. What is so hard in grasping this?
So sciota.... You are saying that Jesus/God is so offended by people rejecting him that he wants to annihilate them? How does that work? Jesus came to save the lost.. yet you are saying that if they are lost then they are thrown into hell? That isn't much of a savior if even one is not saved... Not much of a shepherd if even one sheep is lost....
So what do you have to do (other than reject Christ) to be annihilated or thrown into hell?
So sciota.... You are saying that Jesus/God is so offended by people rejecting him that he wants to annihilate them? How does that work? Jesus came to save the lost.. yet you are saying that if they are lost then they are thrown into hell? That isn't much of a savior if even one is not saved... Not much of a shepherd if even one sheep is lost....
The scripture says the soul of the spirit will be no more.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Your use of the parable is wrong again: The sheep, not spirit or soul, the man, that is lost in the forest means more to Him than all of us that are righteous. What part don't you get about this? UR is a sham. IT says nothing in the scripture about souls redeemed after death when they rejected Christ in their life. THis is imposing and adding to the scripture.
Quote:
So what do you have to do (other than reject Christ) to be annihilated or thrown into hell?
I said I side, if any view, is with annihalation, but I don't ascribe to it completely....but I do not in any way ascribe to UR, because it is false, and the scriptures do not teach it in any way. Christ died for anyone and everyone, but that gift must be received by first, regeneration, then profession of that faith.
UR is a fase claim of eschatology gone mad.
This view is unbiblical and denies the purpose of man's faith in Christ.
It denies His ransom that He paid.
This view believes that the atheist will eventually go to Heaven, and likewise with Satan himself.....what a crock!
So sciota.... You are saying that Jesus/God is so offended by people rejecting him that he wants to annihilate them? How does that work? Jesus came to save the lost.. yet you are saying that if they are lost then they are thrown into hell? That isn't much of a savior if even one is not saved... Not much of a shepherd if even one sheep is lost....
So what do you have to do (other than reject Christ) to be annihilated or thrown into hell?
The bottom line Kat is that when you believe God's grace , love and mercy is limited you are bound to believe and interpret the scriptures to be the same as you believe, for as a man thinks in his heart so is he , and what we believe rules us.
Until God opens our eyes to see beyond on our own preconceived ideas of the scriptures and God's heart towards His creation we will never see it. All we have is a belief that lacks knowledge of Him.
Where? 2 Peter? That was a past event as I showed you in 1 Peter
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
And you used Romans 14 for your basis:
Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Which is;
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
God will judge the world through Christ. The bowing of the knee to him, and the confession made with the tongue, are but outward expressions of inward adoration and praise. Every knee and every tongue, either freely or by force.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The spiritual death, the one Adam received after he took that fateful bite.
Those who take that fateful bite now will experience the same thing.
What you and others fail to understand is the depth and gravity of the book of Revelation, and that it is the unveiling of all the prophets, their prophecies and it is the unveiling of Jesus Christ Himself. What is written in Revelation is set in stone, and what is written is that these things will transpire onto those who reject Him. What is so hard in grasping this?
I do not fail to realize any such thing, but i accomplish (rather the spirit does accomplish within me) the realization that Gods righteous judgments are for the purpose of teaching righteousness to them that are so judged and not merely for the purpose of punitive damage ...
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
And i accomplish (rather the spirit does accomplish within me) to the understanding that those who suffer Gods fiery judgments who have no good works do indeed suffer loss, but are saved as though by the very same fire ...
1 Cor 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Where i believe you are in error is in your thinking that God will force people against there will to confess Christ is their lord and then force them into the lake of fire for the purpose of destroying them forever never to be redeemed.
You obviously do not understand the language that is being used in those verses ...
Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear(shaba`- in this instance it means to take an oath of fealty).
Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess(exomologeō - which means to acknowledge willingly and joyfully, and to give praise and celebrate) to God.
And you missed a couple others ...
Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess(exomologeō - which means to acknowledge willingly and joyfully, and to give praise and celebrate) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Psa 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.
Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
There are quite a few others that are in the same vain as these which refer to how the judgments of God, when they are finally in the earth, will cause all people to learn righteousness and swear fealty to God and confess willingly and joyfully that Christ is their lord in celebration and praise of his name, singing Hosannah with gladness and thanksgiving ...
Much to the contrary of what you say about God forcing people to say uncle before he destroys them by fire for ever, never to be redeemed from the power of sin which is death.
The scripture says the soul of the spirit will be no more.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Your use of the parable is wrong again: The sheep, not spirit or soul, the man, that is lost in the forest means more to Him than all of us that are righteous. What part don't you get about this? UR is a sham. IT says nothing in the scripture about souls redeemed after death when they rejected Christ in their life. THis is imposing and adding to the scripture.
So you do believe that Christ died for all sins of all people.. then how is it that they can choose to retain them? The verse you quoted is talking about dying.. physically dying.. what does that have to do with God sending them to hell or annihilation? Those same souls are God's.. Do you think you have a choice as to where you will go after you die? Because if what you say is true... then God would be able to annihilate anyone..even though that contradicts many parts of the bible.
If Jesus truly died for all sin.. then all sin is washed away.. how then can a sinner retain his sin in the afterlife?
Quote:
I said I side, if any view, is with annihalation, but I don't ascribe to it completely....but I do not in any way ascribe to UR, because it is false, and the scriptures do not teach it in any way. Christ died for anyone and everyone, but that gift must be received by first, regeneration, then profession of that faith.
UR is a fase claim of eschatology gone mad.
This view is unbiblical and denies the purpose of man's faith in Christ.
It denies His ransom that He paid.
This view believes that the atheist will eventually go to Heaven, and likewise with Satan himself.....what a crock!
You may believe it is a crock but I believe that Jesus will accomplish his goal of saving the lost, the sinners. All of them.
The verses you post are in regards to man, not by spirit. This is where UR fails. They place the scriptures to relate to the spirit after death, when they are in regards to the man...the anthropos.
In regards to 1 Cor 3:15
He shall be saved, yet so as by fire, saved out of the fire. He himself shall be snatched out of that flame which will consume his work. This intimates that it will be difficult for those, that corrupt and deprave Christianity, to be saved. God will have no mercy on their works, though he may pluck them as brands out of the burning.
1 Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
Are you kidding me? Do infants sin? This is irrelevant and a typical trap made by a Universalist. You people are beyond the scope of reality.
Let me be plain and forthright. UR decides what God will do to men after they die. I do not. I leave that up to God. You are taking a bite from the tree of Good and Evil like Adam did, and playing God.
I'm not kidding...did I mention anything about UR? I seldom mention UR, but I do quote scripture that Calvinist's get angry at...LOL
It has to do with what you believe. I'm not playing God...LOL, and your dodging the question. You're a good Calvinist (if there is one) and I'm sure John would be proud of you...LOL
Com'on tell me what you believe. Are you hiding from the good news of the Gospel....
The scripture says the soul of the spirit will be no more.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Your use of the parable is wrong again: The sheep, not spirit or soul, the man, that is lost in the forest means more to Him than all of us that are righteous. What part don't you get about this? UR is a sham. IT says nothing in the scripture about souls redeemed after death when they rejected Christ in their life. THis is imposing and adding to the scripture.
I said I side, if any view, is with annihalation, but I don't ascribe to it completely....but I do not in any way ascribe to UR, because it is false, and the scriptures do not teach it in any way. Christ died for anyone and everyone, but that gift must be received by first, regeneration, then profession of that faith.
UR is a fase claim of eschatology gone mad.
This view is unbiblical and denies the purpose of man's faith in Christ.
It denies His ransom that He paid.
This view believes that the atheist will eventually go to Heaven, and likewise with Satan himself.....what a crock!
Sciotamicks,
I think you are confusing the soul and the spirit.
When you say the soul of the spirit - what do you mean, I don't understand what you are saying?
soul is H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
and it seems to relate to the flesh and is of the flesh.
Jesus came to save the lost which is all humans. He was put to death in the flesh and raised by the Spirit - resurrection is about life and spirit.
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