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Just as this case for 1 Tim 2:4, God desires, intends, and delights in that all mankind, Jew, Gentile, King, Slave, Free, etc, to be saved,
You know when you say this sciotamicks it sounds like you think God desires to save every person. But I know you don't mean that because you have said otherwise in other posts. I wish you would be straight with your answers as it is confusing. You don't really believe God delights that all mankind be saved. Your manipulations of the word are affecting your own speech.
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where in He promised Abraham that his seed would "bless" many nations.
Actually God promised that Abraham's seed would bless ALL nations (Gen 18:18, Gen 28:18, Gen 26:4, Psalm 72:17, Gal 3:8).
I'm sorry sciotamicks, but its like you subconsciously change everything to fit your view. Like above, you plainly say God desires, intends, and delights that all mankind be saved, but you don't really mean that. You mean God desires, intends, and delights that SOME OF MANKIND be saved.
Discussion becomes futile when you don't say what you mean.
Strawman to shut down the argument. The old "If you don't have free will you must be a robot" point.
NO WE ARE NOT ROBOTS. Scripture does not describe us as anything so wonderful as a robot. WE ARE CLAY. Clay does nothing on its own. Clay does not have free will.
What you fail to understand is what dipidydooda said: you would not have chose God if God had not caused you to choose Him by opening your eyes and giving you faith. And likewise you could not have NOT chose God once He did open your eyes and give you faith. Thus you did "choose" God, but you could not have done anything else.
Once something has been "chosen" it cannot be "unchosen". God knows all including the future. He knew the day you would "choose" Him - it was set in stone, you were destined to do it. God knew this because He had already planned when, where, and how He would give you faith and open your eyes, and He knew exactly how you would respond, thus it was never up to you, it was always up to God.
Here is an excerpt:
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God and man. I looked into Scripture one day to discover the relationship between these two. This, to me, seemed like such an important question that I could not imagine God ignoring it. Surely among the many, divinely-inspired pages of Scripture would be a simple, easy-to-remember explanation of what man was to God. I found it in Romans 9:21:
Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
Potter and clay. Here was the divine explanation, so simple, yet so difficult to believe, so damaging to man’s pride. God controls man as a potter controls clay. Even a child could understand that. The revelation was embarrassing and wonderful at the same time. It was embarrassing in that it humbles one to be compared to clay. The Greek word is pelos, which means mud. Yet it was wonderful in that all power, honor, and glory for anything that happened with the clay would go to the Potter.
Yet when I tried to relate this news to some of my friends, they refused to believe that God was the Potter and they were the clay. Instead, they told me they made independent decisions. They called this "free will." This was a good name for it, I thought, for one who is "free" is, by definition, unaffected by outside influences, including God. Free will means that not even God can cause a person to act. Otherwise, that person would not be free.
I was having a hard time believing that my friends actually believed what they said they believed (that they were not influenced by God), so I showed them the verses I quoted at the beginning of this article. These verses, I thought, would prove to them that God does influence man, and that no man whom God influences can be called "free."
"But we are not robots!" my friends objected.
This response puzzled me, as I never suggested that they were robots. Robots buzz and blink. Robots creak, squeak, and often work out of reach of their masters. Some robots will even bump into refrigerators with an impressive clank, should their masters doze at the switch.
Most robots have lights of different colors and whirligig circuitry that befuddles even the repairman. Robots impress their makers, they say, so that the technicians themselves have to sit back and admire the machinery they’ve wrought.
Robots? No. I never said that. Nowhere in Scripture are men compared to robots. But they are compared to clay—Romans 9:21. What a difference. Clay neither buzzes nor blinks; it makes no noise or movement of its own. Clay can do nothing apart from the Potter’s hand. It cannot wander from the wheel. It cannot run into a refrigerator, should the Potter sleep.
A hammer is required to reshape the robot; or a vise, or a welding torch, or a pneumatic drill. The Potter need only bend His fingers, and the ashtray becomes a water pot.
Those who resent the idea of being robots give themselves too much credit. They are not robots. They are clay.
You where once blind, then you saw, was this something you did,(made a decision), or was it God that did the work in you?
it was Gods' work, not yours
If it is a work you did then that means that the blind man healed himself
Even Jesus said Himself:
Joh 5:19 -Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself,
Joh 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing:..............
Seems like He was really trying to get the point across that man can do nothing of himself, without the Father doing the work, laying the foundation to be built upon
No, I am not being difficult, and I am not shutting down the argument.
What I said in my post regarding my salvation, in more simpler terms, because it appears my words seem a little too complex for the Universalist.
God drew me.
I surrendered.
Good grief, of course it was God's work! I never, ever implied anything contradictory to that. These interpretive skills are seemingly very, very elementary.
I see you have not addressed the Greek. Two words, different concepts. It appears the Universalists get things mixed up and think the "will" of 1 Tim 2:4 has anything to do with Divine Will. It doesn't. It just simply means that His intention was to remove the partition between Jew and Gentile so thaty salvation is open for all men, a promise He made to Abraham. Could it be any simpler? Unforunately, once again, even in light of deflective and futile counter arguments made by the Universalist, the very scripture they use to support this doctrinal error, has been removed from their playing field.
I see you have not addressed the Greek. Two words, different concepts. It appears the Universalists get things mixed up and think the "will" of 1 Tim 2:4 has anything to do with Divine Will. It doesn't. It just simply means that His intention was to remove the partition between Jew and Gentile so thaty salvation is opne for all men, a promise He made to Abraham. Could it be any simpler? Unforunately, once again, even in light of deflective and futile counter arguments made by the Universalist, the very scripture they use to support this doctrinal error, has been removed from their playing field.
Divine will or intent really doesn't matter.
In your view, God did intend to save all/remove partition but didn't do what he intended... why not?
In UR God did intend to save all/remove partition and he does.
I see you have not addressed the Greek. Two words, different concepts. It appears the Universalists get things mixed up and think the "will" of 1 Tim 2:4 has anything to do with Divine Will. It doesn't. It just simply means that His intention was to remove the partition between Jew and Gentile so thaty salvation is open for all men, a promise He made to Abraham. Could it be any simpler? Unforunately, once again, even in light of deflective and futile counter arguments made by the Universalist, the very scripture they use to support this doctrinal error, has been removed from their playing field.
No Sciotamicks, your explanation is not any simpler. The verse doesn't say God "removed the partition between Jew and Gentile so that salvation is open for all men".
The verse simply says God will have all men to be saved.
Meaning that God desires, intends, and wills to have all men be saved.
sciotamicks, you are the one speaking confusion.
One minute you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks Just as this case for 1 Tim 2:4, God desires, intends, and delights in that all mankind, Jew, Gentile, King, Slave, Free, etc, to be saved,
^^You cannot say the above in good faith that "God desires, intends and delights" to save all mankind, and then turn around and say this (as I have seen you say in other posts): that God doesn't desire to save all mankind.
You are either not expressing yourself correctly or are simply double-minded.
You bring up the "robot" argument, and then say "God drew me. I surrendered." So if you God had not drew you, you would not have surrendered, right? Do you feel like a robot? Do you think you could have resisted, even if God drew you?
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