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Again, where does it say God wished that Lucifer would worship him forever? In fact where does it say that Lucifer no longer worships him? According to the scriptures the fallen angels do still worship the lord when in his presence as did legion ...
Mar 5:6
"But when he(legion) saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him"
What power has Lucifer, if it is not given him by God? And how does Lucifer retain his power if it is not according to the purpose of God? That is what i asked you, you are the one who is saying that god wants what he cannot have.
My questions in regard these things have never been answered by scripture. You keep making claims which do not have any support by scripture. Such as God cannot have what he wants, and that his word cannot accomplish his desire. You are saying God is impotent, and that mans will is greater than gods will, that god prefers mans will to his own. And that he will let man get what he want even if it means that God will not get what he wants, and even if it means the eternal torture of mankind whom God loves which would in fact be everlasting torture for God if he truly does love them.
And of course Christ was speaking to the Israelis whom God had blinded so that they could not find the narrow gate, and they were in fact destroyed because of it in 70 AD, yet Paul tells us in Romans 11 that there being so destroyed(cut off) was so that god could have mercy on all people,a nd that all Israel would eventually be saved even though God had concluded them in unbelief. Again you misinterpret Christs words and you miss the point of God plan and purpose for the ages altogether ...
That is right, no one can believe unless the are regenerated first by the holy spirit. So all the people who do not believe in fact do not believe only because they cannot believe, not because they chose not to believe. As it is written ...
Rom 8:20 "Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope"(NIV)
"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope"(NLT)
"because the creation has become subject to futility, though not by anything it did. The one who subjected it did so in the certainty"(ISV)
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"(KJV)
God bless ...
I find it fake when you say "God bless" right after trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I said the things you accuse me of saying.
Your questions and claims have been struck down DOZENS OF TIMES by direct quotes from the Bible.
Think about what you said of Lucifer. Why is he around wasting his time trying to deceive people who are all going to be saved anyway? You think he is an idiot? No, according to the Bible he is very intelligent indeed, and he would not waste one second trying to deceive anyone unless he knew he can claim victory over their souls.
It is interesting to note that the doctrine of UR is accepted mainly by elders of the church. Almost all the Christian Universalists i know are 20 + year believers who have only come to the knowledge of this truth in the later years of their faith. I find that very interesting ...
I didn't realize that, but it makes sense. It takes a long time to form a deep relationship with the Lord, and the deeper that relationship gets, the more essential it becomes to truly know God. "You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with your whole heart."
I find it fake when you say "God bless" right after trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I said the things you accuse me of saying.
Your questions and claims have been struck down DOZENS OF TIMES by direct quotes from the Bible.
Think about what you said of Lucifer. Why is he around wasting his time trying to deceive people who are all going to be saved anyway? You think he is an idiot? No, according to the Bible he is very intelligent indeed, and he would not waste one second trying to deceive anyone unless he knew he can claim victory over their souls.
I wrote ...
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You keep making claims which do not have any support by scripture. Such as God cannot have what he wants, and that his word cannot accomplish his desire. You are saying God is impotent, and that mans will is greater than gods will, that god prefers mans will to his own. And that he will let man get what he want even if it means that God will not get what he wants, and even if it means the eternal torture of mankind whom God loves which would in fact be everlasting torture for God if he truly does love them.
The bible says that God will(desires to) have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Yet you say even though he will have or desires to have them saved, he will not get what he wills and or desires. So you are saying that God cannot accomplish his desires. This means that you must believe God is not able to save all even though he wants to, so this means you believe he is powerless(impotent) to do what he wants to do.
You say God gives man free will(no where to be found in scripture), and thus even though it is his(Gods) will that all be saved, he prefers mans wicked will to not be saved over his own will to save them and transform them from wicked men into righteous men, even as he transformed us who were once wicked and did not believe into righteous believers. Thus you are saying that god has made mans will greater than his own, or that god prefers mans will to his own. And that he will let man get what he wants even if it means that God will not get what he wants, and even if it means the eternal torture of mankind whom God loves which would in fact be everlasting torture for God if he truly does love them.
I have simply deduced this by your own professed beliefs. There is no other conclusion which one might rationally or logically draw from what you are teaching. So the fact that you "find it fake" when i say "god bless" really has nothing to do with my real intention for saying it, so much as it has to do with your distaste for the conclusion which I logically deduce from your teaching. I do pray that you be blessed by God, and i truly desire it, regardless of the fact that i find your teachings to be illogical, self contradicting, and not based in scripture.
you wrote ...
Quote:
Think about what you said of Lucifer. Why is he around wasting his time trying to deceive people who are all going to be saved anyway? You think he is an idiot? No, according to the Bible he is very intelligent indeed, and he would not waste one second trying to deceive anyone unless he knew he can claim victory over their souls.
Again this is not what scripture says about why God created Lucifer and the purpose of Lucifers existence ...
Isa 54:16
Lo, I -- I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy
The purpose of Lucifer(Satan/Devil) is in order to fashion instruments for Gods work. Evil exists in order to forge the souls of humans that are made for the purpose of God. Again as it is written ...
1Cr 5:5
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
God bless ...
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-08-2010 at 12:36 PM..
According to your belief Mike and everyone else who does not believe in your nonsense are saved regardless. Why should anyone bother to obey the Gospel or reach out to Christ if they are saved with or without it? People die, and then the truth is forced upon them and they are forced to salvation. Simple.
But then again, that's the point if preaching UR, isn't it. The point is to convince people that they don't need Christ, or the Gospel, because they will be saved with or without him. The point is to separate people form Christ ans the Gospel, and that is what makes is Satanic.
Again, why do you argue with believers if you think they are saved anyway. Why are you trying to "save" someone who you believe is already saved?
I do care about you Finn. I love both you and Mike. That's why I share the Gospel with you. The fires that await both you and Mike who deny Christ and His redemption on the cross are not to be taken lightly. It is much wiser to enter through the straight gate my friend. The faith of Abraham is a witness that will testify against your unbelief when you stand before Christ. That is why I keep telling you to read, understand and believe what Romans 4:5 says!
When I speak of Justification I do not imply that the person is born of the Spirit or regenerated from above. That is not what Justification means. To be justified is a forensic act of God, and it means to be declared righteous before Jehovah God on the merits of His death on the cross for us. That is what it means to be justified before God.
Justification is a separate act from imputing and reckoning the sinner with Christ's righteousness. The act of imputing takes place in the heart and mind when the sinner is renewed to life by the Holy Spirit. But this regeneration of the spirit never comes about until born of the Holy Spirit. When born of the Spirit, truth is not forced upon anyone, as you suggest. Truth is received by the new heart and spirit of those born from above because they are of God, and no longer of the flesh. Those who proclaim the Good News cannot make someone believe the Gospel my friend. That is the work of the Spirit alone. We proclaim the truth, because it is that. Truth.
But your faith (or lack thereof) testifies that you do not believe the Gospel or that Jehovah God is He who justifies the ungodly. I would encourage both you and Mike to believe the Good News.
Think about what you said of Lucifer. Why is he around wasting his time trying to deceive people who are all going to be saved anyway? You think he is an idiot? No, according to the Bible he is very intelligent indeed, and he would not waste one second trying to deceive anyone unless he knew he can claim victory over their souls.
Another thing that i logically deduce from what you are teaching in the words above is that in fact you believe Lucifer(Satan) is more victorious in his work to deceive and destroy men for ever in everlasting tortures than Christ is victorious in his work on the cross which is for the purpose of saving men from such a fate. That is to say i deduce from your teaching that you believe Satan has a greater victory than Christ or that Satan is victorious over Christ, knowing that you believe most people will never be saved. I find this to be the ultimate false doctrine ...
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-08-2010 at 12:59 PM..
I do care about you Finn. I love both you and Mike. That's why I share the Gospel with you. The fires that await both you and Mike who deny Christ and His redemption on the cross are not to be taken lightly. It is much wiser to enter through the straight gate my friend. The faith of Abraham is a witness that will testify against your unbelief when you stand before Christ. That is why I keep telling you to read, understand and believe what Romans 4:5 says!
Verse 3 sets the precedent for you to read verse 5 and that is by believing God in obtaining that righteousness. The contrast of works was in regards to what Jews would refer to the works of Abraham, but as the Old Covenant vanishes away to the New Covenant, The Jews cannot enter except through believing in Jesus Christ.
Romans 4: 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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When I speak of Justification I do not imply that the person is born of the Spirit or regenerated from above. That is not what Justification means. To be justified is a forensic act of God, and it means to be declared righteous before Jehovah God on the merits of His death on the cross for us. That is what it means to be justified before God.
If you are using Romans 4:5 as the basis for this errant belief, you are doing so out of context.
Justification has always been related with by faith in Jesus Christ.
What you are doing is ignoring the glory of God in salvation which is found in Christ Jesus by which that justification can be obtained.
Romans 3: 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
The condition of the Just justifying anyone is by believing in Jesus. The same way that Abraham believed God and then that was when it was accounted unto him as righteousness... as in justified.
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Justification is a separate act from imputing and reckoning the sinner with Christ's righteousness. The act of imputing takes place in the heart and mind when the sinner is renewed to life by the Holy Spirit. But this regeneration of the spirit never comes about until born of the Holy Spirit. When born of the Spirit, truth is not forced upon anyone, as you suggest. Truth is received by the new heart and spirit of those born from above because they are of God, and no longer of the flesh. Those who proclaim the Good News cannot make someone believe the Gospel my friend. That is the work of the Spirit alone. We proclaim the truth, because it is that. Truth.
No. You are not proclaiming the truth when you preach UR.
Justification can only come by faith in Jesus Christ.
Your attempt to seperate the justification from being born again is vain.
If one can be justified without faith in Jesus Christ, then that would imply that they have been bought... which in turns mean they are a new creature in Christ..as in they are His... which in turn means they are able to hold the new wine.
Romans 8: 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So UR does not have a leg to stand on. If everyone is justified right now because of what Jesus Christ had done, then how can Paul say that those that have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His?
That is to say i deduce from your teaching that you believe Satan has a greater victory than Christ or that Satan is victorious over Christ, knowing that you believe most people will never be saved.
You make an attempt at logic, and end up with a twisted conclusion, and then you claim that this is what I said.
Verse 3 sets the precedent for you to read verse 5 and that is by believing God in obtaining that righteousness. The contrast of works was in regards to what Jews would refer to the works of Abraham, but as the Old Covenant vanishes away to the New Covenant, The Jews cannot enter except through believing in Jesus Christ.
Romans 4: 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Enow - Your not quite grasping what is going on here when Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith. Look at Genesis 15:5-6:
Gen 15:5 and He bringeth him out without, and saith, `Look attentively, I pray thee, towards the heavens, and count the stars, if thou art able to count them;' and He saith to him, `Thus is thy seed.'
Gen 15:6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him--righteousness.
The promise was declared by God prior to Abraham's faith. The declaration was true whether Abraham believed it or not. Abraham's faith does not make God's promises truthful. But rather that which God promises and declares, is truth. The truth's of God are founded in Christ, not Abraham's faith:
2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
We become, like Abraham did, partakers of Christ's righteousness when we believe the promises of God. The declaration from God is that we are justified and declared righteous on the merits of Christ's work alone. When we believe the promises of God we are imputed with His righteousness. Don't you see this yet?
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If you are using Romans 4:5 as the basis for this errant belief, you are doing so out of context.
Justification has always been related with by faith in Jesus Christ.
Yes, but it is not the believers faith spoken of that justifies him before God. It is the faith and faithfulness of Jesus that redeems the sinner. Look here:
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Christ's faithfulness is to all (coma) and upon all those that believe (coma) for there is no difference between the twogroups being spoken of. All are sinners and declared righteous freely by His grace in Christ:
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
Php 3:9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
It is Jesus that went to the cross and died for us. Not our faith. It is Jesus that was resurrected for us. Not our faith. It is Jesus that justifies us by His faith. Not our faith. Faith from the Spirit is given to us in regeneration and brings the knowledge of our justification to us and imputes His righteousness to our account.
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What you are doing is ignoring the glory of God in salvation which is found in Christ Jesus by which that justification can be obtained.
Romans 3: 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
The condition of the Just justifying anyone is by believing in Jesus. The same way that Abraham believed God and then that was when it was accounted unto him as righteousness... as in justified.
But this is where you really do not believe the promises of God. You've quoted text correctly but do not actually believe it. To reckon is something quite different from declaring. God declared the sinner justified on the merits of Christ alone. Mike and I have had this conversation a million times. It is so clear in scripture but you cannot believe it until born from above.
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No. You are not proclaiming the truth when you preach UR.
Justification can only come by faith in Jesus Christ.
Your attempt to seperate the justification from being born again is vain.
As difficult as it may be to understand, scripture teaches that our justification happened at the cross by the blood of Christ. That is the declaration of God that we are to believe. Regeneration, however, takes place in time, by the Holy Spirit, for each person that comes to faith.
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If one can be justified without faith in Jesus Christ, then that would imply that they have been bought...
Yes, it does! The unbeliever has also been bought by the same Jesus who also died for them too:
2Pe 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
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which in turns mean they are a new creature in Christ..as in they are His... which in turn means they are able to hold the new wine.
They can be justified without being imputed with righteousness. Paul claimed to have been justified by Christ in His blood at the cross and in the resurrection. However, Paul did not come to faith until years after his justification. It was not until Saul was regenerated that he became a new creature, as Paul, in Christ.
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Romans 8: 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So UR does not have a leg to stand on. If everyone is justified right now because of what Jesus Christ had done, then how can Paul say that those that have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His?
Similar to Mike555, I think you're confusing the act of being justified with the act of being regenerated by the Spirit. These are two different graces that are bestowed upon us at two different times. Justification is objective and takes place at the cross. Regeneration is subjective and takes place in the believers life, in time, by means of the Spirit. I'm sorry my friend, but your theology is not standing up to scripture at all. This is why I keep repeating the message of the Gospel...Anyway, I enjoy the discussion we're having.
You make an attempt at logic, and end up with a twisted conclusion, and then you claim that this is what I said.
Sorry, but no cigar, only another false claim.
You say it is a false claim ...
Do you believe Satan will deceive more souls unto damnation than Christ will renew unto salvation or not?
If yes, you believe and teach that Satan has a greater victory over Christ, plain and simple, and you are simply unwilling to admit the fact. It doesnt take great deduction skills to work it out.
Selah ...
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