The lies of eternal torment

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by legoman

Hmm, somehow my thread has turned into a discussion on the "problem of evil"

LOL, well, I would say that it is fitting if it is asserted that eternal torment is evil and if true then God would be unloving.

So there is a problem to be worked out.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

LOL, well, I would say that it is fitting if it is asserted that eternal torment is evil and if true then God would be unloving.

So there is a problem to be worked out.

True enough, indeed "eternal torment" certainly is a "problem of evil"...

Carry on!

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by legoman

Thanks for your concern and kind words Nero, I appreciate it.

Regarding your comments on ET, I would classify these under the OP as more lies of eternal torment (I realize you don't think they are lies, but hey just work with me for a moment):

ETers think that the offer of salvation expires at death
ETers think that warnings of "judgment" and "wrath" are equivalent to "eternal hell"

These are two of the biggest lies to overcome. See, you ask me above to provide a scripture that shows salvation after death, but from my perspective you have it backwards. There simply is no scripture that shows salvation expires after death. But there are many scriptures that show God wants to save all, God will do what He wants, and God's character doesn't change. So I would ask you to show me a scripture that says you CANNOT be saved after death.

In fact most mainstream already believes people can be saved after death. Most people believe babies that die are saved after death. Some also believe that adults who are mentally handicapped are also saved after death. Yet there is no scripture that says that either.

See you are basing your whole view on the fallacy that "judgment" = "eternal condemnation to hell", (using Heb 9:27), when it can be shown that God's judgments actually lead to people learning righteousness (Isa 26:9 for example).

So look at it logically:
- God wants all to be saved
- God is able to achieve what He wants
- God's plan and character DOESN'T change (so He will always want all to be saved)

So then you conclude God doesn't allow people to be saved after death? Even though He wants all to be saved? Even though no scripture says you cannot be saved after death? Is that logical?

"Salvation expiring at death" is another lie of ET my friend.

If you want to see the process, look at 1 Cor 15:22-28, it shows that all are made alive, in Christ (not just "all in christ", but "all, in christ"). Ultimately all enemies are defeated, all authority is put down, no one is reigning forever, and God will be all in all (that's everyone).

Hope this made some sense to you...

I look at it differently... The act of death itself is the rebirth to salvation for those who procrastinate (unbelievers). Thus in dying you are saved from death ... or rather in death you lose your carnal life.. and it is the carnal that makes one unclean. Discard the carnal and you have no sin nature and thus cannot be punished forever...

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But that is JMHO.