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Honestly, the more that I study early Christian writings, the more suspicious I am of what we have left(of said writings) as a model of the true beliefs of the early Church. It is apparent that what we have as Christianity today is not the same thing as what was taught and believed by the earliest Greek Christians.
I believe that the 2nd burning of the library in Alexandria in 391 AD was likely caused by roman Christians in order to destroy much of the written testimony of the Greek Catechetical school in Alexandria ... Most of what we have left of the earliest Greek teachers of the faith is what was translated into Latin by western critics who held the eastern tenets in contempt.
It seems obvious to me that ever since Rome took over Christianity and made it the state religion, that the doctrine and teachings of the Christian faith became so far out of whack so as to hardly resemble the original gospel and teachings of Christ and his apostles.
So the apocalypse of John and its authorship, being claimed by Polycarp to have been written by the apostle John himself, is certainly suspect ...
Honestly, the more that I study early Christian writings, the more suspicious I am of what we have left(of said writings) as a model of the true beliefs of the early Church. It is apparent that what we have as Christianity today is not the same thing as what was taught and believed by the earliest Greek Christians.
I believe that the 2nd burning of the library in Alexandria in 391 AD was likely caused by roman Christians in order to destroy much of the written testimony of the Greek Catechetical school in Alexandria ... Most of what we have left of the earliest Greek teachers of the faith is what was translated into Latin by western critics who held the eastern tenets in contempt.
It seems obvious to me that ever since Rome took over Christianity and made it the state religion, that the doctrine and teachings of the Christian faith became so far out of whack so as to hardly resemble the original gospel and teachings of Christ and his apostles.
So the apocalypse of John and its authorship, being claimed by Polycarp to have been written by the apostle John himself, is certainly suspect ...
But don't you have to ask yourself why God would allow that to happen? Are we to relive this regeneration of the gospel over and over until we get it right?
Perhaps one of us should write a book and call it the bible with all the gory details taken out so that in 2510 no one will be the wiser... and they don't have to suffer through hell just to believe God is Love.
Traditional minded scholars say that the apostle John is the author of The Book of Revelation, that it was written after the writing of the Fourth Gospel (also attributed to the hand of the apostle John), and that all of the evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of this view. Sounds convincing on paper, or even from the pulpit when it's not quite polite to interrupt the preacher except to say hallelujah, and amen. However, anyone can make scriptural comparisons of five New Testament books that have the mere appearance of the same writing hand, and come to the same conclusion as a few early writing church fathers, based on the presuppositions of a multifaceted fish story called "Polycarp." ...which came first: the Revelation of Jesus Christ proclaimed to Israel...OR...the Revelation of Jesus Christ made manifest to Israel??
"I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them."
Isaiah 48:5 KJV
Jesus declared to his chosen apostolic friends, of whom the apostle John was one..."Henceforth I call you not servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends: for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." (John) 15:15 KJV
... if Jesus called them friends unto whom the Word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken, do you say of this son of thunder, whom the Son of God sanctified, and sent into the world that he is no longer called friend at the advent of Revelation 1:1, but servant again ?
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets.
He introduces himself as JOHN...as if by this name...we should be familiar with and know him.
How many Johns in the NT do we know who is a PROPHET?
In reading Isaiah 40:3 we are told that the voice who cries in the wilderness is he who prepares the coming of the Messiah. That was his sole purpose..."to prepare the way"
Isn't the book of Revelation a visionary of THE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD?
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets.
He introduces himself as JOHN...as if by this name...we should be familiar with and know him.
How many Johns in the NT do we know who is a PROPHET?
In reading Isaiah 40:3 we are told that the voice who cries in the wilderness is he who prepares the coming of the Messiah. That was his sole purpose..."to prepare the way"
Isn't the book of Revelation a visionary of THE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD?
I always found it interesting that John the Baptist has a huge part in every one of the gospels in the beginning but then he is just gone.
Perhaps there is a reason why he was killed. Certainly if John the Baptist wrote Revelation he would have had to do it fairly early... which then means that in order to record the crucifixion he lived beyond Christ's death... Just knowing who killed John makes that theory plausible. Could John the Baptist have written Revelation in the 30's shortly after Christ's death, from prison where he was then beheaded at a later time?
Only to be killed himself shortly after that? I think it is likely considering that if he were seen as writing (from prison for insurrection) about Herod as "the beast"... and his wife the "great prostitute" then they would have been quite upset... and so "off with his head."
But don't you have to ask yourself why God would allow that to happen? Are we to relive this regeneration of the gospel over and over until we get it right?
Perhaps one of us should write a book and call it the bible with all the gory details taken out so that in 2510 no one will be the wiser... and they don't have to suffer through hell just to believe God is Love.
Well, i believe God allows the truth to be hidden for a reason ...
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, and the honor of Kings is to search out a matter ...
I believe that in the search for truth, one must be diligent and question what one is told to believe by human authority.
God allows the dross and slime to float to the top in this world, in order to provide the truth seeker ample difficulty in coming to a knowledge of the truth in order to prove themselves workmen who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the words of truth.
We study to show ourselves approved.
That is why when we break free of the dogmatic and doctrinal iron fist of organized fundamentalist religion that we become instantly set upon by defenders of the "popular creed" and of the "status quo", the bourgeoisie of organized religion, as heretics ... They struggle desperately to maintain their power over the laity and do so with threats of divine judgment and everlasting torments for anyone who would dare step outside of their established interpretation.
These people are simply tests of our determination to understand the truth of the gospel among other things. The truth is still there to be found, but one must turn over every rock risking uncovering a den of vipers in the process ... But if we have faith, then we can take need not fear the venom of vipers.
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets.
He introduces himself as JOHN...as if by this name...we should be familiar with and know him.
How many Johns in the NT do we know who is a PROPHET?
In reading Isaiah 40:3 we are told that the voice who cries in the wilderness is he who prepares the coming of the Messiah. That was his sole purpose..."to prepare the way"
Isn't the book of Revelation a visionary of THE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD?
Quote:
Originally Posted By Katjonjj
Quote:
I always found it interesting that John the Baptist has a huge part in every one of the gospels in the beginning but then he is just gone.
Perhaps there is a reason why he was killed. Certainly if John the Baptist wrote Revelation he would have had to do it fairly early... which then means that in order to record the crucifixion he lived beyond Christ's death... Just knowing who killed John makes that theory plausible. Could John the Baptist have written Revelation in the 30's shortly after Christ's death, from prison where he was then beheaded at a later time?
Only to be killed himself shortly after that? I think it is likely considering that if he were seen as writing (from prison for insurrection) about Herod as "the beast"... and his wife the "great prostitute" then they would have been quite upset... and so "off with his head."
I always found it interesting that John the Baptist has a huge part in every one of the gospels in the beginning but then he is just gone.
Perhaps there is a reason why he was killed. Certainly if John the Baptist wrote Revelation he would have had to do it fairly early... which then means that in order to record the crucifixion he lived beyond Christ's death... Just knowing who killed John makes that theory plausible. Could John the Baptist have written Revelation in the 30's shortly after Christ's death, from prison where he was then beheaded at a later time?
Only to be killed himself shortly after that? I think it is likely considering that if he were seen as writing (from prison for insurrection) about Herod as "the beast"... and his wife the "great prostitute" then they would have been quite upset... and so "off with his head."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57
Very PLAUSIBLE...
Interesting theory, but scripture is clear that John was killed before Christ died, while the book of revelations refers to Christs death ...
Mark 6:14–15
Now King Herod heard of Him(Christ), for His name had become well known. And he said, “John the Baptist is risen from the dead, and therefore these powers are at work in him.”
Others said, “It is Elijah.” And others said, “It is the Prophet, or like one of the prophets.”
And again ...
Luke 9:7–8
Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by Him; and he was perplexed, because it was said by some that John had risen from the dead, and by some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the old prophets had risen again.
Also, the John of the apocalypse was on the isle of Patmos at the time he wrote it(Rev 1:9) ... John the baptist was never on Patmos.
Interesting theory, but scripture is clear that John was killed before Christ died, while the book of revelations refers to Christs death ...
Mark 6:14–15
Now King Herod heard of Him(Christ), for His name had become well known. And he said, “John the Baptist is risen from the dead, and therefore these powers are at work in him.”
Others said, “It is Elijah.” And others said, “It is the Prophet, or like one of the prophets.”
And again ...
Luke 9:7–8
Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by Him; and he was perplexed, because it was said by some that John had risen from the dead, and by some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the old prophets had risen again.
Also, the John of the apocalypse was on the isle of Patmos at the time he wrote it(Rev 1:9) ... John the baptist was never on Patmos.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were "beheaded" for the witness of Jesus......and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
I believe the first resurrection (how else would you call this?) happened when Jesus died on the cross.
Matthew 27:50-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
53 And came out of the graves after his RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The writer simply addressed himself as JOHN, and the angel said.....your brethren the prophets. Rev. 22:8-9
Only John The Baptist, who was a prophet, would fit this description.
Well, i believe God allows the truth to be hidden for a reason ...
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, and the honor of Kings is to search out a matter ...
And that is the very purpose of Revelation - the revealing of Jesus Christ. If we read the other 65 books and then come to the culmination - it is that He is removing the veil, uncovering the glory to be revealed in His sons.
Thus the liberation of creation will come.
It is not a horror script, but an onslaught on the carnal systems of this world - before there can ever be a new heaven and a new earth, there will be some mighty dealings of God that will burn up the grass - those surface coverings and masks in our lives; they will destroy the trees - those deeply rooted things that grow out of our earthly nature; they will shake the mountains - those high and exalted kingdoms we have built up from our carnal minds; they will turn the seas to blood until every living thing in them dies - the raging passions, surging emotions, relentless desires, and foaming agitations of the Adamic nature which we must pass through to get to the other side.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were "beheaded" for the witness of Jesus......and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
I believe the first resurrection (how else would you call this?) happened when Jesus died on the cross.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Honestly i am believing that the first resurrection is not a literal resurrection, but that of the the spirit. When we are born again we are having a spiritual resurrection from the dead. While the second resurrection is a literal resurrection, one which all people will take part in eventually ...
And i believe the second resurrection is not time specific, that is to say it will not all happen at the same time. Each person in their own order.
Quote:
Matthew 27:50-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
53 And came out of the graves after his RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The writer simply addressed himself as JOHN, and the angel said.....your brethren the prophets. Rev. 22:8-9
Only John The Baptist, who was a prophet, would fit this description.
Well it is obvious that john the baptist died before Christ died ... So the only way he could have written revelations(which refers to the death of Christ in the past tense) after Christ died would be if he had resurrected and then was imprisoned on Patmos(a prison island) ... That doesn't seem to make sense to me personally ...
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and they don't have to suffer through hell just to believe God is Love.
...which came first: the Revelation of Jesus Christ proclaimed to Israel...OR...the Revelation of Jesus Christ made manifest to Israel??
