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I understand that but obedience is an expression of love, it doesnt make one a pet but it does express love for ones creator.
Do you still OBEY your parents, Robin . . . or do you not love them anymore? Interpreting the things of the childhood of humankind as though they were intended for our adulthood is what causes all the misunderstanding and focus on the wrong aspect. Obedience in children is a necessary part of maturing . . . but it is outgrown and replaced by understanding and love. "Love God and each other" covers so much more than mere obedience to rules from our species childhood. An obedient heart is not an independent and mature heart and cannot truly love.
Yes and you shall know them by their fruit. Nothing self imposed yet self control would be nice. Not rule yet guidelines are good. No restrictions merely respect. Would you that Jesus showed selfishness? He gave and confirmed rules and guidelines.
How can you know or do the two without the eight? If you know or do the two the eight will follow and vice versa.
Are you sure you are for real? You arn't just saying this stuff to paint Christianity in a bad light are you? It is like an SNL skit.
In my OP, I was showing the verses that are most used to prove that there is no longer a need to follow God's Ten Commandments. I plainly showed very similar verses that were so close to identical, that it is obvious that everything mentioned in the "blotted out" verses are ALL in the book of the law!!! The only other answer for non commandment followers is that they are "the same law". If they are the same, then why were they seperated to begin with?? And why the distinct seperation commanded by God in the placement upon the ark?? The book of the law is not the ten commandments "broken down"!! Anyone who believes that is obviously oblivious to the bible. There must be a hundred sabbaths contained in the book of the law, and has nothing to do with the seventh day sabbath!! You know, the one God commanded to creation (note: NOT ISRAEL). How do all the feasts in Moses book equal any of the ten commandments "broken down". That makes absolutely NO SENSE!!!! My point in this thread is that the ten commandments are to be followed by the children of God!! I don't think it matters how you get there, love, letter, faith, whatever, as long as they are followed. The ten commandments were written before Moses wrote the book of the law. If we completely erased everything written by man in the whole world; the only thing left to read would be two lonely stones with the handwriting of God. Oh, how we would be blessed!!! I'll close with a simple verse:
"These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, WITH A GREAT VOICE:HE ADDED NO MORE. And he wrote them on two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
(Deuteronomy 5:22)
Unless you have a voice greater than God, I wouldn't try and add anything!!!!!
I have no idea where you get I am "throwing stones" or contending with Christianity... I simply said (in a long winded post) that if Christ paid the ransom for sin then unless God went back on his word to set the captive free then all of man's sins are not counted against him.
I believe the holy spirit was poured out on the world, and is not an exclusively Christian tool.
Another way to say what I have already said is that if all sins are forgiven and remembered no more.. then what are people frying in hell for? Not believing in the unseen? That sounds a bit odd.. wouldn't you say? Yet the majority of Christianity believes this.
You can conclude what you will but there is no reason for me to think that Christ ransomed only the godly when he specifically came to save the ungodly.
The question you posted to me some time ago has been answered. You are not burdoned to deliever a message by God, but the message of your flesh.
The problem you cant get around is responsibility. This is why like other Universalists you place sin at the feet of God. This is why you do not understand Jesus Christ, and even more so why you have no spirit, but your own to speak of. This speaks volumes to your error and everything you have said in this thread.
"You can conclude what you will but there is no reason for me to think that Christ ransomed only the godly when he specifically came to save the ungodly."
There is not one human on this planet who is godly nor did he come to ransom the "godly". He came to save the sinner not the ungodly. He came to save the sinner not the bad or even good person. When you first addressed me you spoke of contradictions. Your posts abound with nothing more than what you wish to be not what is and are nothing more than false truths. Nothing more than contradictions. The sad part is even the company you keep allows you to abound in the errors they should by scripture keep you from. How ironic Christians care more about you.
In my OP, I was showing the verses that are most used to prove that there is no longer a need to follow God's Ten Commandments. I plainly showed very similar verses that were so close to identical, that it is obvious that everything mentioned in the "blotted out" verses are ALL in the book of the law!!! The only other answer for non commandment followers is that they are "the same law". If they are the same, then why were they seperated to begin with?? And why the distinct seperation commanded by God in the placement upon the ark?? The book of the law is not the ten commandments "broken down"!! Anyone who believes that is obviously oblivious to the bible. There must be a hundred sabbaths contained in the book of the law, and has nothing to do with the seventh day sabbath!! You know, the one God commanded to creation (note: NOT ISRAEL). How do all the feasts in Moses book equal any of the ten commandments "broken down". That makes absolutely NO SENSE!!!! My point in this thread is that the ten commandments are to be followed by the children of God!! I don't think it matters how you get there, love, letter, faith, whatever, as long as they are followed. The ten commandments were written before Moses wrote the book of the law. If we completely erased everything written by man in the whole world; the only thing left to read would be two lonely stones with the handwriting of God. Oh, how we would be blessed!!! I'll close with a simple verse:
"These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, WITH A GREAT VOICE:HE ADDED NO MORE. And he wrote them on two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
(Deuteronomy 5:22)
Unless you have a voice greater than God, I wouldn't try and add anything!!!!!
GOD BLESS!!!
By making this statement brother your original post makes even more sense. I actually have been using this on another forum that is exclusively Christian and it has some decent discussion going. I was hoping for more there, but honestly the Lord has blessed me with your words as next week I go into some indepth Law studies under Theology Proper.
By making this statement brother your original post makes even more sense. I actually have been using this on another forum that is exclusively Christian and it has some decent discussion going. I was hoping for more there, but honestly the Lord has blessed me with your words as next week I go into some indepth Law studies under Theology Proper.
The Lord has blessed us all with HIS words. I do this on behalf of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and our Father in heaven!! Thank you for the compliments. I am happy to have helped!!
The question you posted to me some time ago has been answered. You are not burdoned to deliever a message by God, but the message of your flesh.
The problem you cant get around is responsibility. This is why like other Universalists you place sin at the feet of God. This is why you do not understand Jesus Christ, and even more so why you have no spirit, but your own to speak of. This speaks volumes to your error and everything you have said in this thread.
"You can conclude what you will but there is no reason for me to think that Christ ransomed only the godly when he specifically came to save the ungodly."
There is not one human on this planet who is godly nor did he come to ransom the "godly". He came to save the sinner not the ungodly. He came to save the sinner not the bad or even good person. When you first addressed me you spoke of contradictions. Your posts abound with nothing more than what you wish to be not what is and are nothing more than false truths. Nothing more than contradictions. The sad part is even the company you keep allows you to abound in the errors they should by scripture keep you from. How ironic Christians care more about you.
Are you even reading my posts?
You just said:
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There is not one human on this planet who is godly nor did he come to ransom the "godly".
How does that even make sense?
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
That word for powerless is 'weak' here in Mark 14:38-
Watch and pray, that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
So what exactly are you saying other than the ad hominem?
So you can see that even the original recipients of the law realize that there are only 7 commandments that apply to all people. Those seven are listed in the link provided. So basically the Jews believe you don't have to even know about or believe in God to find favor with him as long as you obey the 7 commandments (which are basic moral principles we all inherently agree upon). These 7 commands are written in the hearts and minds of all people, therefore, the new covenant with the laws written in hearts and minds is in opposition to the old covenant which had those laws (all 613) written in a book and strapped to your forehead and arm for remembrance (which was the shadow of things in the New Covenant) called Phylacteries which was adopted as a literal requirement after the Babylonian captivity. These were also denounced by Christ as laws of men not requirements set forth by God.
Er, I’m a Christian, not a follower of Judaism. I consider what they have to say against the Hebrew Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings. In this case what they say has little merit. Messiah ought to be our teacher not some Rabbi (Mat 23:8).
Katjonjj said:
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“Our thought is that we should all be punished in hell.... …. :-) “
Speak for yourself J
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LEWard said: That is why we need the instruction of all scripture. We don't know what is best for us automatically. Messiah built on what was already given. He didn't toss it and start over. He did not come to destroy the Law, but to do it. 1 John 2:6 "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
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Katjonjj said:
“You don't know what is best for you automatically? Are you saying that the atheist doesn't know right from wrong unless they believe in God? I don't agree with that on any level. People know what is right and good and what is not, no matter what religion or non-religion they are a member of.”
We think we know what is best for us, which is why we’re happy to ignore the poor and enlarge our own bank account. I’m saying even “belief” in God doesn’t automatically teach us right from wrong. Saul believed in God before he was Paul, but he acknowledged that ‘ … I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet"’ (Rom 7:7). The Creator defines what is right and wrong for His creation. Since His ways are higher, we often are confused. Of course, without careful study of His Laws one wouldn’t know what he was missing. King David pondered it regularly, but never claimed a complete understanding.
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Leward said:
“Grace allows us to be adopted sons of God (Gal 4:4-7). Being a son of the Father assumes we do the works of our Father. (John 8:39) We are to be Holy and complete like He is, no darkness (1Pet 1:15, Mat 5:48, 1 John 1:5, 7). Those who sin risk being accused of trampling the grace of God and insulting it (Heb 10:26-29). Is there some scriptural definition of sin that isn't connected with the Law?”
Katjonjj said:
“There is no need for the law when you love your brother as yourself. Why would you think of shedding their blood if you loved them? The definition of sin is missing the mark.. right? So if you murder an intruder in order to save your family you have committed a sin... but for good reason. Had you just broken both legs of the intruder you would not be guilty of the sin of murder... Just because you had good intentions you are still guilty of murder. We see this with police officers who had no choice but to kill yet they feel as if they committed a wrong. They did! But will they suffer eternally for that sin? How would that be fair and just?”
If you understood the Law you would know that it allows for self defense. Typically though, the problem is godly conduct in the little things. The Law tells us not to steal. What happens if I borrow something and it breaks? Suppose I invent something while working for an employer. If I’m later let go can I profit from that invention without the knowledge of the employer? Some things like this the Law deals with directly. Sometimes one needs to translate from their culture to our own. The 10 give the overall categories. The 2 are even more general. The Judgments that came with the 10 add detail. The Law adds additional detail, but also implements changes, like an allowance for divorce that was not originally intended. One must consider it all very carefully.
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LEWard said:
First, you're talking of two different things. The 10 predated the Law, so because someone keeps the 10 tells us nothing automatically about whether or not they keep the Law. You're not alone in this confusion. Many who talk about the Law don't really know what it is.
Katjonjj said:
“According to Judaism the 10 are categories of sins while the 613 are the ones in each category.. the two are inseparable and there was no predating of any. When Moses presented the 10 he broke them... Thus the 10 and the expanded version (613) are the same. One goes into detail and one does not....”
Again, I look to the source, scripture not Judaism, for truth. As I quoted earlier, after Moses wrote the Law it was placed next to the covenant of the Lord, the 10, which was in the ark of the Covenant of the Lord. The covenant of the LAW was placed outside the ark. (Deu 31:24-26) It was not the covenant of the Lord since it was not put in the ark of the covenant of the Lord. The covenant of the Lord had been there for almost 40 years. That puts it before the Law, which is the same as saying it predates the Law.
The Law was not confirmed until Deuteronomy was written. Deu 29:1 “These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb. …[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]12 "that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today”
One covenant, besides another covenant is two covenants not one. To the Jews it makes no difference, since they don’t understand that Messiah, the prophet, has arrived, spoke and acted to establish a new priesthood. You’re free to believe Judaism if you will, but the source is available in reasonably good English. I think you’re better off to read it for yourself, assuming you read it carefully. If you really want to understand what the Law is and is not, you might check out CreatorsCovenant.org.
Katjonjj said:
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… It is Christianity that has turned the 7 into 10 and the 10 into the 613, which is evident in the way homosexuality is condemned... BUT if you as a gentile put yourself under the 10 then you might as well obey all 613 because they are the same. But then you are a slave to the LAW and not a slave to GRACE!
Actually the identification of the 7 as applying to Gentiles doesn’t appear in Jewish writings until after the Mishnah, circa 200 AD. So that understanding is a creation of Judaism long after Messiah recommended keeping the commandments. (Mat 19:17)
Katjonjj said:
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Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation
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Romans 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
The gentiles were never under the law therefore how can they violate it?
Katjonjj, your scriptures do not support what you’re trying to say. “before the law was given, sin was in the world”. Didn’t I already quote Galatians 3:19, “the law was added”? Sin existed before “The Law”. It existed because of “His Laws”, which are His covenant, the 10. This is evident in the next verse, Romans 5:14 “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,…” Adam sinned before the Law, as did everyone else. Sin happened without The Law. It resulted in their death. The Creator established His Law from the beginning. Everyone is accountable to it. Ps 111:9 “He has sent redemption to His people; He has commanded His covenant forever: Holy and awesome is His name.”
Isa 56:6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants––Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant–– 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."
The Creator wanted everyone to participate. Evidently only Abraham, and the patriarchs proved to be serious. Israel was the recipient of God’s grace bringing them out of Egypt and putting up with their rebellious nature. Largely this was due to Moses and Abraham’s obedience. Abraham didn’t keep the Law of Moses, but he kept the Law of God (Gen 26:5). He never tithed to Levi and never brought his offerings to the tabernacle/temple of God. These are required by the Law.
Katjonjj said:
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“Romans 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Therefore if you want to be judged by the law (all 613) then be my guest.. however I choose to remain a gentile and follow the 2.”
“When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law.” This is a rather creative translation, but you picked it. So, if you sin you will be destroyed even though you think you never had Gods law. Now if you really follow the 2 you won’t sin, so why do you have such an issue with the Law that explains how to not sin?
Katjonjj said:
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“Sin will cause death but I will not be judged according to the law of sin but the law of grace.”
Who decides who will receive grace? Do you give it to yourself? Sinning puts you in jeopardy of insulting grace. Heb 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 ... 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" A believer sinning has “trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace”.
Katjonjj said:
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Paul states in Romans 7:8-10 - But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Romans 6:14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
So from all that you can see that to put yourself under the Law of Moses if futile and that Law was to show sin not to save you from it for it is only the lawbreakers that need the law to condemn them.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
Some of what you say is right. Sorting out what the scriptures say from what you want them to say would be tedious. At least you're using scripture as a basis for what you are trying to say.
As a son of the Father I diligently seek to walk in His ways. I look to a different priesthood than that specified in the Law. I’m not under the Law, but I willingly submit myself to the Law of God, the 10. Those are two related but distinct laws. Romans 7:22 “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”
Romans 8:7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Those who do not subject themselves to the Law of God cannot please Him. Those who are after the spirit subject themselves to the Law of God. They can please the Father just as Messiah did. What father would not be pleased with a son that does things the way the father instructs? They don’t try the patience and grace of God by ignoring His instruction.
Katjonjj said:
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“You say that you need the law and I say the law is a burden when you could experience the freedom of God's grace. That is your choice but remember that by what you judge others you will be judged. I would rather not be judged under the law as I am fully capable of discerning what is edifying and what is not. …”
That was how Eve looked at things too. The world has been going downhill ever since.
Katjonjj said:
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“So which is it? Do you follow the law written in your heart as a gentile or are you a Jew and subject to the 10 (and thus the 613)?”
Of course I follow His Laws which I have written in my heart. My Creator bent over backwards to show me how much He cares even while I was disrespecting Him. Now that I know what His Laws are I would truly be a fool to ask Him for forgiveness while at the same time ignoring His instruction. Grace is extended to those who humbly seek His way, not those that can take care of themselves.
LEWard
Last edited by LEWard; 04-09-2010 at 03:19 AM..
Reason: fix Katjonjj spelling
Do you still OBEY your parents, Robin . . . or do you not love them anymore? Interpreting the things of the childhood of humankind as though they were intended for our adulthood is what causes all the misunderstanding and focus on the wrong aspect. Obedience in children is a necessary part of maturing . . . but it is outgrown and replaced by understanding and love. "Love God and each other" covers so much more than mere obedience to rules from our species childhood. An obedient heart is not an independent and mature heart and cannot truly love.
My father is dead and my mother is insane so I truly have no parents to obey. I love my mother and my father still even now, you questions are irrelevant.
As I have shared with you all it is not a matter of obedience to rules it is a matter of respect towards God to do as He commands. You are mistakenly confusing obedience with a lack of independence, you do know that you have no control but that which God grants you and if you were truly independant then stop breathing His air, eating His food, spending His money, for there is no such thing a true independence as we are all subject to God. Express true love for He who deserves your respect.
Are you sure you are for real? You arn't just saying this stuff to paint Christianity in a bad light are you? It is like an SNL skit.
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