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NASA says it's a normal 11 year cycle. You're saying it's not? Is that correct? You see Betsy - to be a "sign" it must be something out of the ordinary. So you are saying it will do something crazy "soon" is that correct?
See - I'm not scoffing - I'm just asking.
No firstborn888....I'm simply stating: Believe man, or Believe God, your choice. That's it, that's all. You already know my stance.
Here it is: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. (Luke 12: 40) KJV
or.......
So be ready: for the Son of man is coming at a time when you are not looking for him. (Luke 12: 40) Bible in Basic English
With the above verses in mind and with the majority of Christians believing this IS the time and this IS the hour then this CANNOT be the time NOR the hour. Right?
14038519]You said: "but I'd swear I read something in the Bible (when I read it long ago) about how people wouldn't know the day or the hour that Jesus would be back. So why do you look for signs of it coming? In your belief isn't God smart enough to hold to those words and have it be a big surprise for everyone?"
Betsey says: You are correct in stating: "that you read somewhere in the Bible that but I'd swear I read something in the Bible (when I read it long ago) about how people wouldn't know the day or the hour that Jesus would be back".
Here it is: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. (Luke 12: 40) KJV or.......
So be ready: for the Son of man is coming at a time when you are not looking for him. (Luke 12: 40) Bible in Basic English
Scripture was clear that no one would know the day or the hour. Jesus was clear to look for signs that it was about to happen but scripturally, day and hour was not known but no where in scripture did it state they wouldn't know the season or approximate time. In fact Jesus stated to look for the signs it was about to happen which is where we go further.......
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You also said:
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So why do you look for signs of it coming? In your belief isn't God smart enough to hold to those words and have it be a big surprise for everyone?"
BUT GOD ALSO SAID: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.(Luke 21:36) KJV
Or........ But keep watch at all times with prayer, that you may be strong enough to come through all these things and take your place before the Son of man. (Luke 21: 36) Bible in Basic English
AGAIN............... And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (Romans 13:11) KJV
or......... See then that the time has come for you to be awake from sleep: for now is your salvation nearer than when you first had faith. ((Romans 13:11) Bible in Basic English
Betsey is correct. They were to look for the signs of His coming and of the end, but end of what?
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Okay let me go back a bit further, the Holy spirit leading of course.
And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now near at hand.
So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
or as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ( Luke 21: 29-36) KJV
or.........And he made a story for them: See the fig-tree, and all the trees;
When they put out their young leaves, you take note of it, and it is clear to you that summer is coming.
n the same way, when you see these things taking place you may be certain that the kingdom of God is near.
Truly I say to you, This generation will not come to an end till all things are complete.
Heaven and earth will come to an end, but my words will not come to an end
But give attention to yourselves, for fear that your hearts become over-full of the pleasures of food and wine, and the cares of this life, and that day may come on you suddenly, and take you as in a net:
For so it will come on all those who are living on the face of all the earth
But keep watch at all times with prayer, that you may be strong enough to come through all these things and take your place before the Son of man. (Luke 21: 29-36) Bible in basic English
Here is where we have disagreement. Both Matthew and Luke stated clearly that it was to happen to "this generation". The audience who first heard this(disciples) would have immediately understood that in a short period all that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse would be fulfilled. To change this to a generation 2000+ years later takes away the clear meaning of "this generation" which was the generation THEN living. Otherwise Jesus was not correct in the timing of when this was to occur. A generation is 40 years. If this was for the 21st Century then the time given is not the plain meaning of "this generation" in either Matthew or Luke and for that matter Mark.
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Now, some would argue that this was all fulfilled back in 70 A.D. I tell you, this is where your God-given common sense comes in, if you are one to believe that "history repeats itself"....well, if He came already, isn't He then coming AGAIN?
This is faulty reasoning in my opinion. There is absolutely nothing in the scripture to state that this is a dual fulfillment. In fact when we see the scripture from the beginning we see that only one event is stated by Christ:
Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
Luke 21
Signs of the End of the Age
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."
Mark 13
Signs of the End of the Age
1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
The utmost importance is to see that Jesus only spoke about ONE subject and ONE statement about that subject. The subject about the Olivet Discourse was about the THEN standing herodian temple in Jerusalem. There is no other temple in view here except the one standing directly in front of Jesus and disciples.
The statement in all three books is that the THEN standing temple would be destroyed and within a generation. Here is the clearest logic in the world. If all that Jesus stated that the THEN standing temple in front of them would be destroyed how can we interpret that the end of the world was also in view here?
Let me make it clearer:
All Jesus said as He was standing in front of the temple in Jerusalem was that it would be destroyed, that's it. Why would the disciples then suddenly assume Jesus was referring to the end of the world? All Jesus said was the structure that was in front of them would be destroyed and now the subject of the entire prophecy suddenly refers also to the end of the world?
It cannot!
All the disciples then do is take Jesus aside and ask Him about the ONE statement about the THEN standing temple that it would be destroyed, nothing more. Let us see the scripture. Remember ALL Jesus said was that the temple would be destroyed. The resulting questions are from that ONE statement:
Matthew 24
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Luke 21
7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
Mark 13
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
The disciples are clearly asking ONLY about the destruction of the temple. Nothing else like the end of the world. There is nothing grammatically or logically to suggest any other subject but the temple's destruction because all Jesus said was the temple in front of them would be destroyed.
The questions the disciples asked were:
1) When will these things happen?
2) What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?
This is only about the temple's destruction. The disciples would not have any reason in the world to suddenly add any other question about the end of the world since all Jesus stated was one thing. The disciples immediately wanted to know:
1) When would the temple be destroyed?
2) What will be the sign that the temple would be destroyed?
3) They understood that the destruction of the temple WAS the end of the age.
None of this has to do with the end of the world but ONLY with the temple's destruction. The third part of their question is also very interesting. If this was an event 2000+ years later then the age they were living in has not ended yet. Remember Jesus had not completed the atonement yet. This was before the crucifixion.
There were only 2 ages in scripture. The Old Covenant age and the New Covenant age. The disciples understood that the last sign of the Old Covenant was the temple in Jerusalem. With it's destruction, the Old Covenant age had disappeared and the New Covenant age had begun. God no longer dwelled in houses of stone but now with His people, those that received the Messiah(Christ.)
Is there scripture to back this idea up. Yes there is:
Hebrews 9
6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
What was the first tabernacle? There was only one, the temple in Jerusalem. The way into the most Holy place or God's presence was not made a reality while the temple was still standing. The temple was the last sign of the Old Covenant. There is no other tabernacle in scripture. This fits in perfectly with the Olivet Discourse. In 70 A.D. exactly a generation after Jesus spoke the prophecy, the temple was destroyed.
The New Covenant age or "the end of the age" had occurred. This is in perfect harmony with scripture. It does not change the clear meaning of Christ's words that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened".
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The hour, yes.....surprise!!! The season......no, hence; heads up! It's for today!!
I believe I made the proof it was for the 1st century only.
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PS: And yes, He also said to seal it up...the Book of Rev. not forever mind you, just till the time of the end. I encourage you to pick it up again.....you said it's been a while. Don't you think it's time friend?
Betsey
Actually God said no such thing in Revelation. in fact He said the opposite:
Revelation 1
1This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon. Christ then sent his angel with the message to his servant John. 2And John told everything that he had seen about God's message and about what Jesus Christ had said and done. 3God will bless everyone who reads this prophecy to others, [a] and he will bless everyone who hears and obeys it. The time is almost here.
Not only did God say 2 times that it was about to happen but He said that blessed is He who reads the words written and obeys what it says. This is direct opposite of what the Book of Daniel says which most are in agreement is about the same event:
Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
Now, why is Daniel told to seal the scroll until the end and John is told to not seal the words but to obey what is said? This makes no sense if the Book of Revelation was not fulfilled yet. It was to be read and obeyed and the Book has been waiting 2000+ years to be fulfilled. It is going against the very instructions God gave to the 1st century.
The only interpretation that makes logical sense is that God meant what He said. That it was about to happen and to obey it. How is this the only logical conclusion?
In the time of Daniel it was not the end so do close the words of the book(that makes sense, it wasn't time.) In the time of John, the book was ABOUT to be fulfilled, do what it says and the book of Daniel was about to be fulfilled as well since it was NOW time. This is clear logic and in plain english. Anything else destroys the clear meaning since Daniel was told to seal the words and John was told to OBEY the words and yet it hasn't happened yet?
If the time statement in Revelation was for an audience 2000+ years later then the audience who FIRST heard it did not have to obey the Book going against the very words of God and therefore meaningless to the 1st century persecuted Church who first heard it. In fact could anyone trust God when He says "soon" or "about to happen" when it could mean thousands of years later? When God says it took 6 days to create the world, can we trust Him if we change the meaning, even once in any scripture? NO we can't trust Him since God's words do not mean what they say so creation may not have been 6 days but maybe 6000 years......who knows?
To throw Revelation into the 21st century makes the very words "soon", "about to happen" , and "obey the words of this book" mean the direct opposite of what they would mean to anyone in John's audience who first heard it.
If God says something either He means what He says or He doesn't. If He doesn't and somehow it is only in His mind that He understands when it is to be fulfilled then we must change every scripture with a time statement(which is hundreds) to mean something different then what they plainly mean. Is that correct? If you do this even once that is what you must do.
I believe the time statements in scripture mean exactly what the plain meaning of them are, not something else.
Scripture was clear that no one would know the day or the hour. Jesus was clear to look for signs that it was about to happen but scripturally, day and hour was not known but no where in scripture did it state they wouldn't know the season or approximate time. In fact Jesus stated to look for the signs it was about to happen which is where we go further.......
Betsey is correct. They were to look for the signs of His coming and of the end, but end of what?
Here is where we have disagreement. Both Matthew and Luke stated clearly that it was to happen to "this generation". The audience who first heard this(disciples) would have immediately understood that in a short period all that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse would be fulfilled. To change this to a generation 2000+ years later takes away the clear meaning of "this generation" which was the generation THEN living. Otherwise Jesus was not correct in the timing of when this was to occur. A generation is 40 years. If this was for the 21st Century then the time given is not the plain meaning of "this generation" in either Matthew or Luke and for that matter Mark.
This is faulty reasoning in my opinion. There is absolutely nothing in the scripture to state that this is a dual fulfillment. In fact when we see the scripture from the beginning we see that only one event is stated by Christ:
Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
Luke 21
Signs of the End of the Age
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."
Mark 13
Signs of the End of the Age
1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
The utmost importance is to see that Jesus only spoke about ONE subject and ONE statement about that subject. The subject about the Olivet Discourse was about the THEN standing herodian temple in Jerusalem. There is no other temple in view here except the one standing directly in front of Jesus and disciples.
The statement in all three books is that the THEN standing temple would be destroyed and within a generation. Here is the clearest logic in the world. If all that Jesus stated that the THEN standing temple in front of them would be destroyed how can we interpret that the end of the world was also in view here?
Let me make it clearer:
All Jesus said as He was standing in front of the temple in Jerusalem was that it would be destroyed, that's it. Why would the disciples then suddenly assume Jesus was referring to the end of the world? All Jesus said was the structure that was in front of them would be destroyed and now the subject of the entire prophecy suddenly refers also to the end of the world?
It cannot!
All the disciples then do is take Jesus aside and ask Him about the ONE statement about the THEN standing temple that it would be destroyed, nothing more. Let us see the scripture. Remember ALL Jesus said was that the temple would be destroyed. The resulting questions are from that ONE statement:
Matthew 24
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Luke 21
7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
Mark 13
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
The disciples are clearly asking ONLY about the destruction of the temple. Nothing else like the end of the world. There is nothing grammatically or logically to suggest any other subject but the temple's destruction because all Jesus said was the temple in front of them would be destroyed.
The questions the disciples asked were:
1) When will these things happen?
2) What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?
This is only about the temple's destruction. The disciples would not have any reason in the world to suddenly add any other question about the end of the world since all Jesus stated was one thing. The disciples immediately wanted to know:
1) When would the temple be destroyed?
2) What will be the sign that the temple would be destroyed?
3) They understood that the destruction of the temple WAS the end of the age.
None of this has to do with the end of the world but ONLY with the temple's destruction. The third part of their question is also very interesting. If this was an event 2000+ years later then the age they were living in has not ended yet. Remember Jesus had not completed the atonement yet. This was before the crucifixion.
There were only 2 ages in scripture. The Old Covenant age and the New Covenant age. The disciples understood that the last sign of the Old Covenant was the temple in Jerusalem. With it's destruction, the Old Covenant age had disappeared and the New Covenant age had begun. God no longer dwelled in houses of stone but now with His people, those that received the Messiah(Christ.)
Is there scripture to back this idea up. Yes there is:
Hebrews 9
6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
What was the first tabernacle? There was only one, the temple in Jerusalem. The way into the most Holy place or God's presence was not made a reality while the temple was still standing. The temple was the last sign of the Old Covenant. There is no other tabernacle in scripture. This fits in perfectly with the Olivet Discourse. In 70 A.D. exactly a generation after Jesus spoke the prophecy, the temple was destroyed.
The New Covenant age or "the end of the age" had occurred. This is in perfect harmony with scripture. It does not change the clear meaning of Christ's words that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened".
I believe I made the proof it was for the 1st century only.
Actually God said no such thing in Revelation. in fact He said the opposite:
Revelation 1
1This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon. Christ then sent his angel with the message to his servant John. 2And John told everything that he had seen about God's message and about what Jesus Christ had said and done. 3God will bless everyone who reads this prophecy to others, [a] and he will bless everyone who hears and obeys it. The time is almost here.
Not only did God say 2 times that it was about to happen but He said that blessed is He who reads the words written and obeys what it says. This is direct opposite of what the Book of Daniel says which most are in agreement is about the same event:
Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
Now, why is Daniel told to seal the scroll until the end and John is told to not seal the words but to obey what is said? This makes no sense if the Book of Revelation was not fulfilled yet. It was to be read and obeyed and the Book has been waiting 2000+ years to be fulfilled. It is going against the very instructions God gave to the 1st century.
The only interpretation that makes logical sense is that God meant what He said. That it was about to happen and to obey it. How is this the only logical conclusion?
In the time of Daniel it was not the end so do close the words of the book(that makes sense, it wasn't time.) In the time of John, the book was ABOUT to be fulfilled, do what it says and the book of Daniel was about to be fulfilled as well since it was NOW time. This is clear logic and in plain english. Anything else destroys the clear meaning since Daniel was told to seal the words and John was told to OBEY the words and yet it hasn't happened yet?
If the time statement in Revelation was for an audience 2000+ years later then the audience who FIRST heard it did not have to obey the Book going against the very words of God and therefore meaningless to the 1st century persecuted Church who first heard it. In fact could anyone trust God when He says "soon" or "about to happen" when it could mean thousands of years later? When God says it took 6 days to create the world, can we trust Him if we change the meaning, even once in any scripture? NO we can't trust Him since God's words do not mean what they say so creation may not have been 6 days but maybe 6000 years......who knows?
To throw Revelation into the 21st century makes the very words "soon", "about to happen" , and "obey the words of this book" mean the direct opposite of what they would mean to anyone in John's audience who first heard it.
If God says something either He means what He says or He doesn't. If He doesn't and somehow it is only in His mind that He understands when it is to be fulfilled then we must change every scripture with a time statement(which is hundreds) to mean something different then what they plainly mean. Is that correct? If you do this even once that is what you must do.
I believe the time statements in scripture mean exactly what the plain meaning of them are, not something else.
In being fair to the scriptures, you are absolutely correct in your interpretation. To interpret them (on this subject) otherwise is, in my estimation, WILLFUL ignorance.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 05-04-2010 at 10:05 PM..
With the above verses in mind and with the majority of Christians believing this IS the time and this IS the hour then this CANNOT be the time NOR the hour. Right?
That's an awfully good point. We have all these "signs" telling us when this is going to happen, but we won't be expecting it...my head hurts.
No firstborn888....I'm simply stating: Believe man, or Believe God, your choice. That's it, that's all. You already know my stance.
But you quote the NASA article which states this is a basically normal solar cycle. Just the fact that it happens as predicted makes the event innately predictable. Yet you're saying that God is indicating this particular solar cycle is going to be different than the others? Where exactly is He saying this?
But you quote the NASA article which states this is a basically normal solar cycle. Just the fact that it happens as predicted makes the event innately predictable. Yet you're saying that God is indicating this particular solar cycle is going to be different than the others? Where exactly is He saying this?
I'm simply showing you what NASA states and what God says....you do the believing...man, or GOD!
In being fair to the scriptures, you are absolutely correct in your interpretation. To interpret them (on this subject) otherwise is, in my estimation, WILLFUL ignorance.
That's your opinion....you may need to "see" before you believe, not everyone. Some simply believe JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOD and HE SAID SO!
No disrespect InsaneInDaMembrane, willful ignorance.....you would know quite a bit about that now wouldn't you? You who once believed in the God of the Bible, but it that works for you, that works for you. You don't see me calling you insane, ohhhh, you're already doing that....
That's your opinion....you may need to "see" before you believe, not everyone. Some simply believe JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOD and HE SAID SO!
No disrespect InsaneInDaMembrane, willful ignorance.....you would know quite a bit about that now wouldn't you? You who once believed in the God of the Bible, but it that works for you, that works for you. You don't see me calling you insane, ohhhh, you're already doing that....
Don't be insulted my dear. It is just my opinion based on observation. If you feel I am being willfully ignorant, then to say so does NOT offend me. I still hold to the opinion that those who claim that chapters such as Matthew 24 was written for people 2,000 years in the future do so out of willful ignorance and blatant twisting and spinning to fit a skewed view of things.
And there ain't a single thing that you can do to stop the events from unfolding just like the Bible says it WILL! ABSOLUTELY NADA!!
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave
You are doing just what the Bible says people will do. You are fulfilling prophecy
2 Peter 3:3-4 "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.""
And I love the OP shushing people when they disagree with her. Kinda makes me all warm inside...
I notice Betsey lives in Homestead, FL, which I've since visited in the mid-90's. I wonder if she was perhaps there during it's Tribulations, and if she was totally convinced then that "This is the End at last! Praise God"
I'll just bet she did. And yet.....
Ahhhhh to live in total need of such troubling and damaging events. To even wish for such things on your fellow man, particularly on those who simply don't believe as you do... A sad social commentary indeed.
Even given the recent occurrence of some large-scale geological or climatic events, we're always recovering from them. Mt. St. Helen's, Katrina, the Haitian earthquake, the Iceland volcanoe (the hot End Times topic two weeks ago, but not so much now....), yesterday's Chilean earthquake....
Now, for them to be an indicator of an imminent Godly disaster, they'd have to be cumulative, we not recovering from each one, or any of them, before we're hit by yet another. Else, they're just serial occurrences, as have ALWAYS happened, with no Godly consequence.
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