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The thread is in response to a post make on another thread and was posted to not detract from the QP of the previous thread:
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown Or we cannot exclude the view that Paul is teaching (if that is how you want to translate it) that God is the preserver of all men but He is the preserver of believers in a special way in this life or age and in the age to come. If God is interested in preserving all men in this life, why would He not be interested in what happens to all men beyond this world and into the next? Why would He even care to be their Preserver in this life if He created them with the intention of consigning them to everlasting death or everlasting hell? Are we not all the offspring of God as Paul says in Act 17:28? Would you agree that God is just, merciful, righteous, no respecter of persons, love? Why would the gospel (good news) be preached to every creature under heaven if it only applies to a select few? It would be like a doctor proclaiming to all that he had medicine to heal all of the sick, however, he only intends to provide it for a handful. Would that not be a cruel joke? Do you believe in eternal hell, Preterist? God bless.
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God is also a God of wrath, judgment, and justice. Our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. Would you agree that God many times came in judgment in the OT against those who professed to love Him and honor Him? We are not an all-knowing, all-powerful, completely holy and righteous being that we can sit in judgment of God's decisions.
Hi Preterist, yes God is also a God of wrath, judgment and justice. God’s wrath was displayed when people disobeyed. This is different from creating people with the sole intention of consigning them to everlasting hell upon their creation. . I agree that we cannot understand all of the ways of God but He has to us revealed certain things one being His good pleasure or intention for all men (Colossians 1:15-20) and the expectation of the final deliverance of all creation from the bondage to corruption (Romans 8).
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ShanaBrown: The Scriptures make it clear that some will be saved and some will perish. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
Yes some will perish, but it will temporary in that it was God’s good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself and God is able to accomplish whatever He purposes to do. “Everlasting” = aionios, eonian, of or relating to the age.
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And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in EVERLASTING CHAINS under DARKNESS for the judgment of the great day, as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE" (Jude 7).
"Then He will also say to those on His left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food . . . . Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:41ff).
All of the verses that you have given in reference to "eternal fire or punishment" with the exception of Jude 7 is literally or age lasting, of or relating to the age, age enduring. (aionios, eonian) And age is an indefinite period of time. The angels in Jude 7 have been kept eternal (aidios) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
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"So it was that the beggar [Lazarus] died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in TORMENTS in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. . . Then he cried and said, ". . . send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME" (Luke 16:22ff).
Yes, many Christians understand that this is a parable and does not refer to a everlasting hell. I do believe that many will be tormented, but there is to be an end when Christ subjects all to Himself, delivering up the kingdom to the Father, and God the Father becomes all in all (1 Cor. 15:20-28)
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"Anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:15).
Yes, this does not mean that it is an eternal situation, especially since Jesus is to fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10)
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Yes, I believe in eternal hell. And I believe in a holy, righteous, and just God who does what He wants and when He wants. If what He does seems unjust and unloving and unkind to us, it is because WE are not God and WE do not see the whole picture as He does. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts!
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ALL are headed for eternal damnation--it is by God's grace that He saves any from that path of destruction. Read Romans 9 concerning the attempt of mortal man to point a finger at God and cry foul!
"What shall I say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have RAISED YOU UP, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy ON WHOM HE WILLS, and WHOM HE WILLS, He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O MAN, WHO ARE YOU to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'why have you made me thus?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the VESSELS OF MERCY, which He has PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR GLORY . . . " (Romans 9:14ff).
We do not see things as God sees them, but we have His word for revelation concering these matters.
Thank you for sharing. I believe that many will experience the wrath of God and are vessels prepared for destruction. There are many scriptures which speak to this and this is good and essential for the subjection of all to God. The glorious thing is God has given us a glimpse into the glorious final outcome for all mankind. Death, destruction, and hell are not the end result for the lost offspring of God. The effect of Adam's transgression will not be greater than the sacrifice of the Son of God. The scriptures which speak of the eventual restoration of all must be taken just as those scriptures which speak of the wrath and punishment of God. All things belong to Christ and He will be victorious in reconciling all to the Father. Thus the Father's will will be done (Ephesians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15: 20-28, Romans 8:18-22, Colossians 1: 15-20, ) God bless you and thanks for sharing.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-24-2007 at 03:03 PM..
Sodom suffered "the vengeance of ETERNAL fire." (Jude 1:7), yet it was an event that happened "...as in a moment" (Lamentations 4:6). There are no fires burning in Sodom today. Therefore, when the words "eternal" and "punishment" are found together in the scriptures, we cannot conclude that the word "eternal" speaks of duration. Jesus promised Sodom would be better off on the day of judgement than some other cities (Matthew 10:15, Matthew 11:24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12). Jesus said that if the mighty works done in Capernaum had been done in Sodom, they would not have been destroyed (Matthew 11:23).
God often destroys, but he also restores, He is like the potter that crushes the imperfect clay before moulding it into perfection. Sodom was destroyed by God, yet Scripture also speaks of its restoration and regeneration (Ezekiel 16:55).
T. Ronneberg
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It is contended that if AION and AIONIOS do not mean eternal, then the life of believers is limited. But this is faulty logic based on a false inference. That believers live forever is
guaranteed by rising to immortality {1Cor.15:53}. Immortal people cannot die. At the consummation, all death is abolished {1Cor15:26}. If there is no more death, then there is nothing but life.
The special life spoken of in Mt.25:46 is eonian life {1Tim.4:10,"especially"}.
This life sees the believer through to the time when there is nothing but life. This particular life is not eternal. It lasts through the eons or ages.
Not all have eonian {or age-lasting} life, only believers {1Tim.4:10}.
J.P
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-24-2007 at 04:38 PM..
Reason: addition
The thread is in response to a post make on another thread and was posted to not detract from the QP of the previous thread:
Hi Preterist, yes God is also a God of wrath, judgment and justice. God’s wrath was displayed when people disobeyed. This is different from creating people with the sole intention of consigning them to everlasting hell upon their creation. . I agree that we cannot understand all of the ways of God but He has to us revealed certain things one being His good pleasure or intention for all men (Colossians 1:15-20) and the expectation of the final deliverance of all creation from the bondage to corruption (Romans 8).
Yes some will perish, but it will temporary in that it was God’s good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself and God is able to accomplish whatever He purposes to do. “Everlasting” = aionios, eonian, of or relating to the age.
"All of the verses that you have given in reference to "eternal fire or punishment" with the exception of Jude 7 is literally or age lasting, of or relating to the age, age enduring. (aionios, eonian) And age is an indefinite period of time. The angels in Jude 7 have been kept eternal (aidios) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
Yes, many Christians understand that this is a parable and does not refer to a everlasting hell. I do believe that many will be tormented, but there is to be an end when Christ subjects all to Himself, delivering up the kingdom to the Father, and God the Father becomes all in all (1 Cor. 15:20-28)
Yes, this does not mean that it is an eternal situation, especially since Jesus is to fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10)
Thank you for sharing. I believe that many will experience the wrath of God and are vessels prepared for destruction. There are many scriptures which speak to this and this is good and essential for the subjection of all to God. The glorious thing is God has given us a glimpse into the glorious final outcome for all mankind. Death, destruction, and hell are not the end result for the lost offspring of God. The effect of Adam's transgression will not be greater than the sacrifice of the Son of God. The scriptures which speak of the eventual restoration of all must be taken just as those scriptures which speak of the wrath and punishment of God. All things belong to Christ and He will be victorious in reconciling all to the Father. Thus the Father's will will be done (Ephesians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15: 20-28, Romans 8:18-22, Colossians 1: 15-20, ) God bless you and thanks for sharing.
ShanaBrown: Looks like we're going to have to disagree on this one. I have spent too many hours in fruitless debates on this topic, and really don't want to go there again. I'm sure you understand. I have enjoyed the convesation, however.
I believe that many will experience the wrath of God and are vessels prepared for destruction. There are many scriptures which speak to this and this is good and essential for the subjection of all to God.
The word fitted or "prepared" is really an interesting word. The apostle St. Paul speaks of those fitted for destruction. This is what fitted means in Koine Greek....
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."
In the Book of Acts we read regarding the final recovery of all things from sin, or if you like, when all things are put right, or restored anew.
Acts 3:21
**** "Until final recovery of all things from sin." -Kenneth Taylor-
**** "Until the whole world is re-created." -RIEU-
**** "When all is restored anew." -Monsig. Ronald Knox-
**** "When all things are put right." -BAS-
**** "Of the great restoration." -James Moffatt-
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Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times. (BBE)
Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began. (Darby)
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Heaven must receive him until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets. Matt. 17:11; Luke 1:70; Acts 1:11 (ISV)
Whom, indeed, heaven must retain till the time of the accomplishment of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, from the beginning of time. (Living Oracles)
Whom the heavens must receive until the time of restoration of all things. "God spoke of this ages ago, through the mouth of his holy prophets. (Montgomery)
Whom the heavens must retain, until the completion of the times of those things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets of old. (Murdock)
Unto whom, indeed, heaven must needs give welcome, until the times of the due establishment of all things, of which God hath spoken through the mouth of his holy age-past prophets. (Rotherham)
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Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things. (F. Weymouth)
Apokatastasis= Restitution=
Re-establishment from a state of ruin (Of a perfect state before the fall of Adam. The kindred verb is "to restore" (see Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T.)....the same as regeneration in Matt. 19:28
The making of all things new. The restoration of Acts 3:21= the "when" of the next clause.
"And this is in harmony with Gods merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
Please Note:
Apokatastasewv in linked with palingenesia
Palingenesia ="new birth"
Palin= "again,"
Genesis= "birth"
Used of "spiritual regeneration," Titus 3:5, involving the communication of a new life.
2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Shana, you have such a gentle spirit and you are always so polite and respectful of others beliefs and opinions. Of course you know from my previous posts I disagree with you on this. I believe the Bible teaches that hell is eternal separation from God, that is why Jesus came and died on the cross, so we could escape it, if we choose to, it's our choice. If God was going to reconcile everyone in the end to Himself then why did Jesus die such an excruciating death for us, I do believe some people will spent eternity there and that is very sad. Christ's desire is to rescue us from that and His love for us motivated Him to die for us.
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