Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Again, as I posted on the previous page, you don't put the most diabolical, clever, manipulative thing ever created with 2 children, which is what the first humans were, if not for a REASON!
Something much BIGGER than most of us realize is going on here!
Concerning Christ, he created evil, so he did not have to sin to know evil, though he became the sin of the world as well, and he experienced sin vicariously before he became sin through the world around him.
So no, as Christ pre-existed the universe, and existed with the father before time was, he is the one human being who did not have to sin in order to know Good and evil. However, everyone else by necessity sins, and it is impossible for anyone(human) beside Christ to truly know Good and evil without themselves sinning.
Iron
I know many believe God created through Christ evil but scriptures other then Is.45:7 (which I gave a different interpretation of) tell us differently.
Matthew 7:17-20
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
A good tree CANNOT bring forth/be the author or the cause of EVIL fruit; surely, God is a good tree.
Luke 6:45
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
“For of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh” and a good man brings forth that which is good. When God creates He does so by His word; therefore to say God brought forth evil from His word is the same as saying God is a corrupt God for only a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
We are to know those who are Gods children by their fruit (that which they produce) and if God can produce evil fruit so to can His children. And if this is so what difference is there between the children of God and the children of satan?
Deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Brother this is exactly what took place in the garden. To say God planned for man to eat from the tree makes His command not to eat redundant.
Lamentations 3:31-39
31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. 34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth, 35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, 36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.
37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? 38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? 39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
These scriptures state God does not willingly afflict man, yet if God planned for man to sin even though He commanded man not to sin then God willingly afflicted mankind. These scriptures also state that to subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. The word subvert means to pervert or make crooked so how could God plan to make man crooked if He does not approve of it?
However, the best part of these scriptures state out of the mouth of God proceedeth NOT evil and good. Moreover, God always creates by His word so how do you reconcile God creating evil in Is.45:7 with what is stated here?
The translation I gave forth of Is.45:7 reconciles these scriptures easily, the understanding man has of Is.45:7 cannot be reconciled with Lam.3:38.
Quote:
According to scripture, Adam and eve became as God when they ate the tree of knowledge. Not by being obedient, but after they had already disobeyed ...
Brother think about what you just wrote. Your saying man became like God after sinning. That makes sinful man the image and likeness of God instead of the Christ man being the image and likeness of God.
To understand what happened here one must first understand what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is and why eating of it gave forth knowledge of good and evil.
The knowledge of good and evil is the law, so let’s look at that first so we can understand what happened in the garden of Eden.
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.
Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.
There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there an actual tree that gives us knowledge.
The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.
What is this tree that can bring death to man?
Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is?
The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world.
Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.
Now does understanding of the law only come by sinning?
Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Galatians 3:23
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 5:18 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Therefore, to say the only way to gain knowledge of good and evil is by sinning and being placed under the law is incorrect for those who are led by the Spirit have fulfilled the law and when one walks in the Spirit on does NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.
So yes man gain the knowledge of good and evil by breaking the commandment thou shalt not, but that is not the only way to gain the knowledge of good and evil, it can also be gained by obedience and walking in the Spirit.
One gains the knowledge by being UNDER the law, the other gains the knowledge by FULLFILLING the law.
You break the commandment you are under the law, you obey and you fulfill the commandment, either way knowledge is gained.
Quote:
Bara is the same word used in all these passages ...
Now do the same and translate the word Bara as cut down in these passages and see what kind of sense that makes. None ...
For instance ...
Isa 65:17
For, behold, I cut down new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
It makes perfect sense brother; do you not believe God cuts down or out the old in order to bring in the new?
or ...
Isa 65:18
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I cut down: for, behold, I cut down Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Again it makes perfect sense to me brother. Are we not to rejoice when God cuts down or cuts out the old.
Think of it this way Iron, when God made covenant with Abraham did he not CUT off the foreskin? Is it not this CUTTING away of all that is old how God makes man anew?
Quote:
and again ...
Psa 51:10
cut down in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Brother, how does God create in us a clean heart? Is it not through circumcision? Does circumcision not evolve CUTTING?
Do not the scriptures state that God creates/bara by His word?
What is the word of God?
Is it not a two edged sword?
Is that sword not used for dividing between soul and spirit and bone and marrow?
And how can it divide except by cutting.
Quote:
I realize that is certain contexts that it can be understood to mean Cut, but only when being used in the "piel" voice, however it is the "qal" voice being used in that scripture, as it is God that is the subject and not a man ...
It is true that bara' means "slash," but only in the Hebrew Piel voice. (The Hebrew verbal system is based primarily on voices, or "modes" or "stems" as they are sometimes called.) In the Piel voice, the verb bara' can have a human subject, and means "cut down, slash." In the Qal voice, which is the foundational voice, it only has God as subject, and means "to do a wondrous work."
Most scholars would agree with that brother, but that does not make them correct.
Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.
He also suggested that the reason cut down/cut out was not used in other scripture was because the translators could not see how cut down/cut out could explain bara.
For myself I see how cut down/cut out always works in regards to other scriptures for the simple reason is the word of God is a two edged sword and God always creates through His word.
Quote:
Even if you want to translate paal as work, the scripture is still stating that the wicked for the day of evil is Gods work.
The Septuagint gives a different reading
Let the heart of a man think justly, that his steps may be rightly ordered of God.
The eye that sees rightly rejoices the heart; and a good report fattens the bones.
He that rejects instruction hates himself; but he that minds reproofs loves his soul.
The fear of the Lord is instruction and wisdom; and the highest honour will [a] correspond therewith. All the works of the humble man are manifest with God; but the ungodly shall perish in an evil day.
Every one that is proud in heart is unclean before God, and he that unjustly strikes hands with hand shall not be held guiltless. The beginning of a good way is to do justly; and it is more acceptable with God than to offer sacrifices. He that seeks the Lord shall find knowledge with righteousness: and they that rightly seek him shall find peace.All the works of the Lord are done with righteousness; and the ungodly man is kept for the evil day.
Quote:
I appreciate that you choose not to beleive that God created evil, but in so many words you are saying that evil is outside the jurisdiction of God, and exists as a separate entity foreign to Gods creative act. That is called dualism, and is not what the original Hebrew religion, or event he modern Hebrew religion teaches. What you are saying is more akin to Zoroastrianism, and not Judaism.
It is not that I choose to not believe God creates evil, scripture tells me otherwise. The root of evil is sinand scripture tells me sin is of the devil not of God.
Again, as I posted on the previous page, you don't put the most diabolical, clever, manipulative thing ever created with 2 children, which is what the first humans were, if not for a REASON!
It's so obvious, isn't it? I mean it's certainly not rocket science. It just blows my mind how few people get it!
I know many believe God created through Christ evil but scriptures other then Is.45:7 (which I gave a different interpretation of) tell us differently.
Matthew 7:17-20
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
A good tree CANNOT bring forth/be the author or the cause of EVIL fruit; surely, God is a good tree.
Luke 6:45
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
“For of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh” and a good man brings forth that which is good. When God creates He does so by His word; therefore to say God brought forth evil from His word is the same as saying God is a corrupt God for only a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
We are to know those who are Gods children by their fruit (that which they produce) and if God can produce evil fruit so to can His children. And if this is so what difference is there between the children of God and the children of satan?
Deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Brother this is exactly what took place in the garden. To say God planned for man to eat from the tree makes His command not to eat redundant.
Lamentations 3:31-39
31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. 34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth, 35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, 36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.
37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? 38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? 39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
These scriptures state God does not willingly afflict man, yet if God planned for man to sin even though He commanded man not to sin then God willingly afflicted mankind. These scriptures also state that to subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. The word subvert means to pervert or make crooked so how could God plan to make man crooked if He does not approve of it?
However, the best part of these scriptures state out of the mouth of God proceedeth NOT evil and good. Moreover, God always creates by His word so how do you reconcile God creating evil in Is.45:7 with what is stated here?
The translation I gave forth of Is.45:7 reconciles these scriptures easily, the understanding man has of Is.45:7 cannot be reconciled with Lam.3:38.
Brother think about what you just wrote. Your saying man became like God after sinning. That makes sinful man the image and likeness of God instead of the Christ man being the image and likeness of God.
To understand what happened here one must first understand what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is and why eating of it gave forth knowledge of good and evil.
The knowledge of good and evil is the law, so let’s look at that first so we can understand what happened in the garden of Eden.
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.
Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.
There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there an actual tree that gives us knowledge.
The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.
What is this tree that can bring death to man?
Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is?
The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world.
Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.
Now does understanding of the law only come by sinning?
Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Galatians 3:23
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 5:18 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Therefore, to say the only way to gain knowledge of good and evil is by sinning and being placed under the law is incorrect for those who are led by the Spirit have fulfilled the law and when one walks in the Spirit on does NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.
So yes man gain the knowledge of good and evil by breaking the commandment thou shalt not, but that is not the only way to gain the knowledge of good and evil, it can also be gained by obedience and walking in the Spirit.
One gains the knowledge by being UNDER the law, the other gains the knowledge by FULLFILLING the law.
You break the commandment you are under the law, you obey and you fulfill the commandment, either way knowledge is gained.
It makes perfect sense brother; do you not believe God cuts down or out the old in order to bring in the new?
or ...
Isa 65:18
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I cut down: for, behold, I cut down Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Again it makes perfect sense to me brother. Are we not to rejoice when God cuts down or cuts out the old.
Think of it this way Iron, when God made covenant with Abraham did he not CUT off the foreskin? Is it not this CUTTING away of all that is old how God makes man anew?
Brother, how does God create in us a clean heart? Is it not through circumcision? Does circumcision not evolve CUTTING?
Do not the scriptures state that God creates/bara by His word?
What is the word of God?
Is it not a two edged sword?
Is that sword not used for dividing between soul and spirit and bone and marrow?
And how can it divide except by cutting.
Most scholars would agree with that brother, but that does not make them correct.
Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.
He also suggested that the reason cut down/cut out was not used in other scripture was because the translators could not see how cut down/cut out could explain bara.
For myself I see how cut down/cut out always works in regards to other scriptures for the simple reason is the word of God is a two edged sword and God always creates through His word.
The Septuagint gives a different reading
Let the heart of a man think justly, that his steps may be rightly ordered of God.
The eye that sees rightly rejoices the heart; and a good report fattens the bones.
He that rejects instruction hates himself; but he that minds reproofs loves his soul.
The fear of the Lord is instruction and wisdom; and the highest honour will [a] correspond therewith. All the works of the humble man are manifest with God; but the ungodly shall perish in an evil day.
Every one that is proud in heart is unclean before God, and he that unjustly strikes hands with hand shall not be held guiltless. The beginning of a good way is to do justly; and it is more acceptable with God than to offer sacrifices. He that seeks the Lord shall find knowledge with righteousness: and they that rightly seek him shall find peace.All the works of the Lord are done with righteousness; and the ungodly man is kept for the evil day.
It is not that I choose to not believe God creates evil, scripture tells me otherwise. The root of evil is sinand scripture tells me sin is of the devil not of God.
God bless you also brother
Well, i don't have the time to answer this entire post at this time ... But i wanted to say that God created Satan. Satan did not always exist. And God new satan would be evil, according to Christ he was a liar from the beginning. So either you take the Lucifer argument and believe that Satan became evil later on for some unknown reason, or he was always evil. I'm not sure where you stand but either you believe God created Satan, or you believe that Satan always existed.
God creating evil or vessels of wrath for the purpose of "making his power known" is not the same as saying that evil is a fruit of God. I believe you are taking that out of context, and that many scriptures concerning God hardening whom he will harden do not agree with your interpretation.
It also means God is out of control of his creation, and if God did not want evil to exist then God is not sovereign over his creation. And the fact remains the same, according to ancient Judaism, God created Satan for the purpose of being an adversary to man. Just read Job and you'll see that Satan and God are not at odds, but God uses Satan to test Job. In fact Satan has no power other than the power God gives him according to Job. So that story completely blows the idea that God is not in control of evil and does not use it for his own purposes out of the water.
Again, i realize you will not agree, so i will leave it at that for now ...
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-10-2010 at 10:36 PM..
Again, as I posted on the previous page, you don't put the most diabolical, clever, manipulative thing ever created with 2 children, which is what the first humans were, if not for a REASON!
Something much BIGGER than most of us realize is going on here!
Hmmm, God did not put the serpent in the garden with two children, God put two children in the garden with the sepent.
And yes it was for a bigger purpose.
That purpose being so that those two children could preach the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in heavenly places
Ephesians 3:10-11
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Hmmm, God did not put the serpent in the garden with two children, God put two children in the garden with the sepent.
And yes it was for a bigger purpose.
That purpose being so that those two children could preach the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in heavenly places
Ephesians 3:10-11
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Indeed, and how does the believer teach the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities? By using Satan to test the believer. And then the believer overcoming through the spirit of Gods work in their lives shows the principalities Gods wisdom in creating all things according to his own purpose and Council and for his own pleasure. Hence the story of Job ...
Phl 2:13
for God it is who is working in you both to will and to workfor His good pleasure.
Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created
Well, i don't have the time to answer this entire post at this time ... But i wanted to say that God created Satan. Satan did not always exist. And God new satan would be evil, according to Christ he was a liar from the beginning. So either you take the Lucifer argument and believe that Satan became evil later on for some unknown reason, or he was always evil. I'm not sure where you stand but either you believe God created Satan, or you believe that Satan always existed.
God creating evil or vessels of wrath for the purpose of "making his power known" is not the same as saying that evil is a fruit of God. I believe you are taking that out of context, and that many scriptures concerning God hardening whom he will harden do not agree with your interpretation.
It also means God is out of control of his creation, and if God did not want evil to exist then God is not sovereign over his creation. And the fact remains the same, according to ancient Judaism, God created Satan for the purpose of being an adversary to man. Just read Job and you'll see that Satan and God are not at odds, but God uses Satan to test Job. In fact Satan has no power other than the power God gives him according to Job. So that story completely blows the idea that God is not in control of evil and does not use it for his own purposes out of the water.
Again, i realize you will not agree, so i will leave it at that for now ...
Selah ...
Iron it is such a hard topic to cover and I am tired, I may make an answer to what you said tomorrow if I have the time.
We don't have to agree brother, I am just giving a different perspective, we can agree to disagree.
Indeed, and how does the believer teach the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities? By using Satan to test the believer. And then the believer overcoming through the spirit of Gods work in their lives shows the principalities Gods wisdom in creating all things according to his own purpose and Council and for his own pleasure. Hence the story of Job ...
Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created
I agree bro that it is by overcomming through the spirit, but alas we know that adam did not overcome but fell into the sin that was in the world before the commandment came.
Iron it is such a hard topic to cover and I am tired, I may make an answer to what you said tomorrow if I have the time.
We don't have to agree brother, I am just giving a different perspective, we can agree to disagree.
God bless
I understand ... Good night pneuma.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
