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It happened slowly on my part but it may seem like it happened overnight here because I kept posting like my usual stubborn fundie self. And yes, Virginia, I mean Insane, there is a God after all!!!
Bless your heart for saying that, Ilene. My assumption when I was Baptist was that, magically, when each translation acceptable to most fundie Christians was undertaken, God supernaturally guided the hands and minds of all involved. So, therefore, if God's hand was in it, it has to be perfect, right?
This forum has touched me as it has you, Ilene. Actually having the evidence of how the Bible was written and passed down through the ages has taught me more than all those years of growing up Fundie. How I wish I had known more about canonical history from the start than just "the King James version is the most accurate and that's what every believer should use."
Hi Snuffy and thank you for saying THAT!! And as a Baptist like you, I also assumed that if so many believed it then it must be of God and it must be true. We've all been duped, and some of us, very few, are starting to see the real truth that hell is not eternal. Woo! What a glorious revelation!! This forum HAS touched me in so many ways and there are some wonderful people here trying to proclaim what they perceive to be the truth....we must pray that they will come to see what we have learned about the truth.
I love all my C-D friends and I pray that they would just learn that this is the truth and stop harassing me and telling me how "sad" they are for me. This IS NOT sad!!! This is marvelous, wonderful news that needs to be proclaimed!! Jesus is the only way to salvation, people still must believe that but what He did extends way beyond this life that we know. The whole universe seems alive and love has never had this kind of meaning.....universalism brings people closer to God and the love of God, there's no doubt about that!! God bless you Snuffy...I know you're exactly where I am in this journey.
When I was a Christian, I just took it for granted that the Bible was miraculously preserved and passed down to us by the providence of god. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I realize that is not a popular opinion around these parts.
Speaking of mistranslations, my favorite has to be Deuteronomy 32:7-9. Now, in the KJV, the passage is not just mistranslated...it appears to have been deliberately done so for a reason you will soon see after I give this brief history.
Contrary to popular belief, the early Hebrews/Israelites (collectively) did NOT believe in one god or at least, did not believe only one god existed. What happened under Moses was that he swore them to the WORSHIP of one god (YWH or Yahweh) even though it was believed other gods existed who governed the surrounding nations. This, however, did not stop the Israelites from worshiping other gods as we are told in the middle Old Testament but after centuries of internal religious wars and purges (notably in the days of the Judean king, Josiah), the cult of Yahweh emerged as the royally mandated god/religion of choice. Remember, under king Ahaz, Josiah's grandfather, the temple was shut down and the priests of Yahweh was effectively put out of commission, but under Josiah, who ascended the throne as a young impressionable king who fell under the influence of Yahwehists like Jeremiah, ALL other "religions" were purged from Judah. Take note how similar this is to the later religious purges by Roman Emperors like Theodosius who paved the way to make Christianity the ONLY accepted religion in the Roman Empire.
By the time the Jews were exiled in Babylon, they had become monotheists, believing only ONE god existed - their god, Yahweh. By New Testament times, monotheism became synonymous with Judaism.
Why do I point these things out? Well, about 1,000 years ago (give or take), the Jews decided to sit down and write out their scriptures in Hebrew. Up to that time, the only record of their scriptures they had was the Greek-translated Septuagint (also known as the LXX) which was done during the days of Greek domination in the eastern and southeastern Mediterranean under the Greek-Egyptian king Ptolemy I who ordered it.
That version became known as the Masoretic Text (MT), named after the sect of Jews who wrote it up. Keep in mind that at this time, the Jews were fierce monotheists. The flipping back and forth between various gods was far in their distant past. Also, keep in mind that the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) was still over 900 years in the future. Thus, it was the Masoretic Text that the King James Version translated from as the basis for its compilation.
Now to put all of this together by getting back to Deuteronomy 32:7-9. If you read that passage in the Masoretic Text/KJV, at first glance it seems to make sense, but upon closer observation, you will realize it really doesn't. The "on the surface" interpretation of Verse 8 and verse 9 basically says that the Most High divided the nations and (Jacob) Israel was his portion (inheritance/allotment). This makes no sense when you think about it. How does god inherit something from himself? This is the conclusion the MT and KJV forces a person to come up WHEN the passage is read.
An additional problem comes in when the MT and KJV says the nations were divided according to "Children of Israel." A casual glance of the Table of Nations (dividing of the nations) in Genesis shows us that Israel was NOT a nation at the time the nations were divided.
Interestingly enough, the older LXX says that the nations were divided according to the angels which is different from the LATER MT and KJV. The even OLDER DSS (the Revised Standard Version stays true to this manuscript) says something different and says the nations were divided according to "the sons of God." When this is realized, Deuteronomy 32:7-9 makes better sense even though it completely blows up the common understanding of the biblical god. What Deuteronomy 32:7-9 is really saying is this (paraphrased):
Youngsters, consult your elders and let them tell you how things happened. When the Most High (El Elyon) divided the nations amongst his [70] sons, our nation (Jacob/Israel) was alloted to OUR god ("the LORD" = Yahweh/Jehovah). Yes, Israel was HIS portion/inheritance.
Note CAREFULLY that El Elyon and Yahweh are two distinct and separate deities despite the later amalgamation of the two.
Interesting post Insane. I appreciate your knowledge and intellect of all things biblical or non-biblical as the case may be. I don't have this kind of knowledge because I've never taken the time to research these types of things but that is changing....no more following doctrine blindly. Now about El Elyon and OUR God.....I don't know what to think about that, I would have to do my own research to be able to comment properly. I will say that it could be, although it would have been before Christ came, that it could be referring to God the Father, and God the Son because Jesus was always in existence. It could be as simple as that, that they were not aware of the triune God like we are. I just don't think there is any way to really know for sure what they were referring to.
Interesting post Insane. I appreciate your knowledge and intellect of all things biblical or non-biblical as the case may be. I don't have this kind of knowledge because I've never taken the time to research these types of things but that is changing....no more following doctrine blindly. Now about El Elyon and OUR God.....I don't know what to think about that, I would have to do my own research to be able to comment properly. I will say that it could be, although it would have been before Christ came, that it could be referring to God the Father, and God the Son because Jesus was always in existence. It could be as simple as that, that they were not aware of the triune God like we are. I just don't think there is any way to really know for sure what they were referring to.
Why thank you Ilene.
Now I was just waking up when I typed up that post and I realize I did a rather poor job.
Anyway, it is my OPINION that what the [later] Jews did or what they inherited, was an evolved theology that had changed over the years from what their earlier ancestors believed. Older neighboring cultures, such as the Sumerians (earth's earliest civilization), Akkadians and the people at Ugarit believed there was a father god who had 70 sons and those sons were given the responsibility to rule over the 70 nations which, ironically, are found in Genesis 10. This polytheistic theology bleeds though in parts of the Old Testament from time to time.
By the time the Jews sat down to write up what was to become the Old Testament, they were monotheists. So how would they re-write their ancient polytheistic/henotheistic religious history in light of their current belief (monotheism)? The Old Testament is the evidence. In the process, they amalgamated their god (Yahweh) with the ancient father god of the ancient peoples of that region of the world. So Yahweh (in their theology) became El Elyon, El Shaddai, the creator of the universe and so on. He took on the attributes of other older gods and became the supreme ruler of the heavens. This is not uncommon in ancient myths where a younger god overthrows, usurps or assumes the throne of an older god (EX: Zeus to Cronus, Helel to Shahar).
Now I was just waking up when I typed up that post and I realize I did a rather poor job.
Anyway, it is my OPINION that what the [later] Jews did or what they inherited, was an evolved theology that had changed over the years from what their earlier ancestors believed. Older neighboring cultures, such as the Sumerians (earth's earliest civilization), Akkadians and the people at Ugarit believed there was a father god who had 70 sons and those sons were given the responsibility to rule over the 70 nations which, ironically, are found in Genesis 10. This polytheistic theology bleeds though in parts of the Old Testament from time to time.
By the time the Jews sat down to write up what was to become the Old Testament, they were monotheists. So how would they re-write their ancient polytheistic/henotheistic religious history in light of their current belief (monotheism)? The Old Testament is the evidence. In the process, they amalgamated their god (Yahweh) with the ancient father god of the ancient peoples of that region of the world. So Yahweh (in their theology) became El Elyon, El Shaddai, the creator of the universe and so on. He took on the attributes of other older gods and became the supreme ruler of the heavens. This is not uncommon in ancient myths where a younger god overthrows, usurps or assumes the throne of an older god (EX: Zeus to Cronus, Helel to Shahar).
Well because I'm so unlearned in this area I'll just leave it at what I said before.....could have been the Godhead that became three in one. Or two in one, and they just weren't yet aware of the Holy Spirit. I don't know, kinda over my head as of the moment. I still have to go with the Bible being the inspired Word of God, written by inspired men of God. I may not understand it all, but none of us do, obviously. What in the world would we bicker about if we understood it all? Oh, but my bad....there are some here who DO claim to understand all of it and have the perfect interpretation. The rest of us are just, well.....guess we're going to that imaginary "hell" for not believing them.
I would imagine that mistranslations often come from a desire to change the Word to be more pleasing on the flesh.
2 Tim. 4
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
That time is now! Jesus is surely at the door, as this is yet another sign.
I would imagine that mistranslations often come from a desire to change the Word to be more pleasing on the flesh.
2 Tim. 4
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
That time is now! Jesus is surely at the door, as this is yet another sign.
The truth was turned to a fable almost the minute the message left the gate! This was written 2000 years ago! Wake up!
People started heaping teachers unto themselves a LONG time ago!
Paul WARNED people 2000 YEARS AGO! Think about it! What do you think he was warning about??!!
What has been the fruit of "Christianity?" It's time is definitely about up! And there will be surprises in store!
And, in case you all have forgotten what those fruits were supposed to be:
The truth was turned to a fable almost the minute the message left the gate! This was written 2000 years ago! Wake up!
People started heaping teachers unto themselves a LONG time ago!
Paul WARNED people 2000 YEARS AGO! Think about it! What do you think he was warning about??!!
What has been the fruit of "Christianity?" It's time is definitely about up! And there will be surprises in store!
And, in case you all have forgotten what those fruits were supposed to be:
LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONG-SUFFERING, KINDNESS!
That's right Herefornow......this is something that's been around for 2000 years! There are a lot of false teachings out there but I don't think it is any more than it was all those years ago. We are just more aware via our technology. So what do you mean by "it's time is definitely up"....just trying to clarify what you said.
You know what I think... Whenever you are translating something, even just ordinary conversation from one language to another, you often have a number of different words to choose from. Take the word "thin," for instance. Synonyms for "thin" are "skinny," "slim," "slender," "bony," "lean," "ematiated," "skeletal," "slight," "lanky," "slender," "willowy," "trim," "svelte," "wiry," etc. If a man is turned off my overly thin women, he might describe a certain woman as "emaciated" or "bony." If another man found that same women to be very attractive, he would probably say she was "slender" or "willowy."
If you wanted to choose the best, the most accurate word, you would have to know what the original language was trying to say. If the original speaker was not available for you to ask, you'd have to use your best judgment. You might want to choose the best word, but you only think you know what the speaker was actually trying to say, so you choose a word that means what you think he wanted to say. If you're wrong, you've mistranslated the word. It's really as simple as that. The translators of the Bible had to go by what they believed the original author was trying to say (according to what they thought he meant) and find the best word to express what they believed he wanted to say.
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And as a Baptist like you, I also assumed that if so many believed it then it must be of God and it must be true. We've all been duped, and some of us, very few, are starting to see the real truth that hell is not eternal. Woo! What a glorious revelation!! This forum HAS touched me in so many ways and there are some wonderful people here trying to proclaim what they perceive to be the truth....we must pray that they will come to see what we have learned about the truth. 
I don't have this kind of knowledge because I've never taken the time to research these types of things but that is changing....no more following doctrine blindly. Now about El Elyon and OUR God.....I don't know what to think about that, I would have to do my own research to be able to comment properly. I will say that it could be, although it would have been before Christ came, that it could be referring to God the Father, and God the Son because Jesus was always in existence. It could be as simple as that, that they were not aware of the triune God like we are. I just don't think there is any way to really know for sure what they were referring to.
Oh, but my bad....there are some here who DO claim to understand all of it and have the perfect interpretation. The rest of us are just, well.....guess we're going to that imaginary "hell" for not believing them.
