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Some of these neighborhood names might be off, but Im confident that the densities are correct.
So I did some research using city-data.com-using SFs current population density of 17,127 as a benchmark, I compiled a list of neighborhoods in each city that had densities in excess of 17,127 persons per square mile and here are the results:
Philadelphia Neighborhood, Population/Area in Sq Miles/Population Density
Antique Row, 1,002/0.027/37,402
Gayborhood, 4,356/0.118/37,009
Powelton Village, 4,996/0.156/32,108
South Philadelphia, 22,053/0.702/31,414
Financial District, 1,913/0.063/30,274
Spruce Hill, 8,289/0.274/30,215
Rittenhouse, 19,917/0.665/29,938
Dickinson Narrows, 5,513/0.188/29,273
Washington Square, 12,372/0.426/29,044
Newbold, 13,106/0.463/28,295
Restaurant Row, 183/0.007/28,133
East Passyunk Crossing, 8,188/0.306/26,753
Penn Campus Shopping/West Philly 5,522/0.210/26,275
3rd St Fabric Row, 139/.006/25,019
Point Breeze, 25,689/1.054/24,547
Girard Estate, 10,157/0.414/24,508
Harrowgate, 16,681/0.699/23,878
Avenue of the Arts, 393/0.017/23,750
Passyunk Square, 11,608/0.500/23,196
Filter Square, 4,694/0.203/23,100
Fairmount, 5,918/0.259/22,826
Chestnut Street, 595/.026/22,505
Bella Vista, 4,456/.200/22,284
Wharton, 24,742/1.089/22,728
Garden Court, 7,695/0.347/22,204
Carroll Park, 12,733/0.588/21,652
Cedar Park, 15,755/0.717/21,988
Spring Garden, 6,715/0.312/21,552
Center City West, 26,037/1.203/21,642
Haddington, 27,138/1.275/21,285
Bainbidge St Booksellers Row, 765/.036/21,202
Cobbs Creek, 40,433/1.979/20,431
Oregon Av Discount Shopping, 1,477/0.072/20,430
Fairhill, 28,456/1.415/20,112
63rd St Discount Shopping, 1,777/.091/19,558
Society Hill, 6,413/0.330/19,429
Baring, 13,721/0.708/19,392
Southwest Center City, 9,816/0.508/19,325
Queen Village, 6,038/0.313/19,312
Italian Market, 2,424/0.126/19,240
Penn Center, 1,386/0.073/18,869
Passyunk Discount Shopping, 772/0.041/18,743
The Badlands, 5,349/0.288/18.586
Walnut Hill, 5,678/0.312/ 18,204
Squirrel Hill, 6,611/0.366/18,052
South Street, 1,092/0.061/17,831
Fairmount, 21,329/1.232/17,309
Olney, 37,253/2.109/17.667
Brewerytown, 11,966/.694/17,249
West Oak Lane, 39,254/2.277/17,236
San Francisco Neighborhood, Population/Area in Sq Miles/Population Density
Little Saigon, 985/0.012/83,075
Tenderloin, 24,913/ 0.350/ 71,254
Chinatown, 13,103/0.212/61,897
Lower Nob Hill, 18,713/0.344/54,467
Nob Hill, 20,396/0.395/51,694
Downtown San Francisco, 21,021/0.426/49,335
Telegraph Hill, 8,275/0.215/38,513
NOMA, 72,484/1,974/36,724
Mint Hill, 2,762/0.080/34,348
Polk Gulch, 3,195/0.094/33,955
North Beach, 20,193/0.620/32,594
The Hub(Mid Market), 2,684/0.085/31,633
Hayes Valley, 5,698/0.180/31,619
Deco Ghetto, 2,881/0.092/31,220
Mission Dolores, 10,846/0.352/30,839
Alamo Square, 5,573/0.181/30,815
Lower Haight, 9,074/0.298/30,500
Baja Noe, 2,106/0.069/30,334
Transmission, 3,195/0.113/28,317
Western Addition, 12,889/0.463/27,822
Haight-Ashubry, 10,603/0.390/27,207
Russian Hill, 13,361/0.500/26,698
Mission, 47,276/1.876/25,352
Cole Valley, 4,192/0.169/24,737
North Panhandle, 10,049/0.377/24,622
Little Russia, 2,755/0.113/24,308
Lower Pacific Heights, 10,715/0.442/24,242
Inner Richmond, 17,116/0.707/24,223
Sunnydale, 4,592/0.191/23,997
Cathedral Hill, 2,827/0.120/23,592
Central Richmond, 24,785/1.081/22,933
Richmond, 59,324/2.705/21,930
Crocker Amazon, 11,910/0.568/20,971
Duboce Triangle, 3,674/0.178/20,667
Pacific Heights, 21,899/0.967/22,650
Zion, 6,423/0.302/21,253
Cow Hollow, 7,260/0.356/20,422
Inner Sunset, 18,200/0.893/20,386
Lake, 8,297/0.421/19,718
Ingleside, 8,165/0.414/19,715
Outer Mission, 8,410/0.429/19,596
Civic Center, 9,629/0.492/19,566
Castro, 12,594/0.662/19,027
Van Ness, 8,933/0.473/18,871
Bernal Heights South, 15,773/0.842/18,731
Mastro, 2,962/0.158/18,701
Bernal Heights, 24,818/1.320/18,313
Lone Mountain, 7,081/0.386/18,330
Noe Valley, 20,993/1.147/18,308
Bernal Heights North, 8,573/0.470/18,230
Upper Market, 2,911/0.163/17,858
Park Merced, 6,834/0.387/17,648
Silver Terrace, 8,499/0.485/17,535
Excelsior, 23,528/1.350/17,422
Central Sunset, 20,196/1.176/17,171
All Philadelphia Neighborhoods with a Density of 17,129+ Combined Area: 25.545 sq. miles Combined Population: 544,604 Population Per Square Mile: 21,319
All San Francisco neighborhoods with a density of 17,129+ Combined Area: 29.253 sq. miles. Combined Population: 655,534 Population Per Square Mile: 22,750
Top 10 Neighborhoods, Philadelphia
Combined Area: 3.082 sq. miles
Combined Population: 93,517
Population Per square Mile: 30,342
Top 10 Neighborhoods, San Francisco
Combined Area: 4.722 sq. miles.
Combined Population: 206,040
Persons Per sqauare Mile: 43,634
So if this data is correct(and I welcome scrutiny cause Id rather have correct data than 'win' some argument), then San Francisco's 29 most dense square miles are more dense than Philadelphia's 25 most dense square miles.
Some of these neighborhood names might be off, but Im confident that the densities are correct.
So I did some research using city-data.com-using SFs current population density of 17,127 as a benchmark, I compiled a list of neighborhoods in each city that had densities in excess of 17,127 persons per square mile and here are the results:
Philadelphia Neighborhood, Population/Area in Sq Miles/Population Density
Antique Row, 1,002/0.027/37,402
Gayborhood, 4,356/0.118/37,009
Powelton Village, 4,996/0.156/32,108
South Philadelphia, 22,053/0.702/31,414
Financial District, 1,913/0.063/30,274
Spruce Hill, 8,289/0.274/30,215
Rittenhouse, 19,917/0.665/29,938
Dickinson Narrows, 5,513/0.188/29,273
Washington Square, 12,372/0.426/29,044
Newbold, 13,106/0.463/28,295
Restaurant Row, 183/0.007/28,133
East Passyunk Crossing, 8,188/0.306/26,753
Penn Campus Shopping/West Philly 5,522/0.210/26,275
3rd St Fabric Row, 139/.006/25,019
Point Breeze, 25,689/1.054/24,547
Girard Estate, 10,157/0.414/24,508
Harrowgate, 16,681/0.699/23,878
Avenue of the Arts, 393/0.017/23,750
Passyunk Square, 11,608/0.500/23,196
Filter Square, 4,694/0.203/23,100
Fairmount, 5,918/0.259/22,826
Chestnut Street, 595/.026/22,505
Bella Vista, 4,456/.200/22,284
Wharton, 24,742/1.089/22,728
Garden Court, 7,695/0.347/22,204
Carroll Park, 12,733/0.588/21,652
Cedar Park, 15,755/0.717/21,988
Spring Garden, 6,715/0.312/21,552
Center City West, 26,037/1.203/21,642
Haddington, 27,138/1.275/21,285
Bainbidge St Booksellers Row, 765/.036/21,202
Cobbs Creek, 40,433/1.979/20,431
Oregon Av Discount Shopping, 1,477/0.072/20,430
Fairhill, 28,456/1.415/20,112
63rd St Discount Shopping, 1,777/.091/19,558
Society Hill, 6,413/0.330/19,429
Baring, 13,721/0.708/19,392
Southwest Center City, 9,816/0.508/19,325
Queen Village, 6,038/0.313/19,312
Italian Market, 2,424/0.126/19,240
Penn Center, 1,386/0.073/18,869
Passyunk Discount Shopping, 772/0.041/18,743
The Badlands, 5,349/0.288/18.586
Walnut Hill, 5,678/0.312/ 18,204
Squirrel Hill, 6,611/0.366/18,052
South Street, 1,092/0.061/17,831
Fairmount, 21,329/1.232/17,309
Olney, 37,253/2.109/17.667
Brewerytown, 11,966/.694/17,249
West Oak Lane, 39,254/2.277/17,236
San Francisco Neighborhood, Population/Area in Sq Miles/Population Density
Little Saigon, 985/0.012/83,075
Tenderloin, 24,913/ 0.350/ 71,254
Chinatown, 13,103/0.212/61,897
Lower Nob Hill, 18,713/0.344/54,467
Nob Hill, 20,396/0.395/51,694
Downtown San Francisco, 21,021/0.426/49,335
Telegraph Hill, 8,275/0.215/38,513
NOMA, 72,484/1,974/36,724
Mint Hill, 2,762/0.080/34,348
Polk Gulch, 3,195/0.094/33,955
North Beach, 20,193/0.620/32,594
The Hub(Mid Market), 2,684/0.085/31,633
Hayes Valley, 5,698/0.180/31,619
Deco Ghetto, 2,881/0.092/31,220
Mission Dolores, 10,846/0.352/30,839
Alamo Square, 5,573/0.181/30,815
Lower Haight, 9,074/0.298/30,500
Baja Noe, 2,106/0.069/30,334
Transmission, 3,195/0.113/28,317
Western Addition, 12,889/0.463/27,822
Haight-Ashubry, 10,603/0.390/27,207
Russian Hill, 13,361/0.500/26,698
Mission, 47,276/1.876/25,352
Cole Valley, 4,192/0.169/24,737
North Panhandle, 10,049/0.377/24,622
Little Russia, 2,755/0.113/24,308
Lower Pacific Heights, 10,715/0.442/24,242
Inner Richmond, 17,116/0.707/24,223
Sunnydale, 4,592/0.191/23,997
Cathedral Hill, 2,827/0.120/23,592
Central Richmond, 24,785/1.081/22,933
Richmond, 59,324/2.705/21,930
Crocker Amazon, 11,910/0.568/20,971
Duboce Triangle, 3,674/0.178/20,667
Pacific Heights, 21,899/0.967/22,650
Zion, 6,423/0.302/21,253
Cow Hollow, 7,260/0.356/20,422
Inner Sunset, 18,200/0.893/20,386
Lake, 8,297/0.421/19,718
Ingleside, 8,165/0.414/19,715
Outer Mission, 8,410/0.429/19,596
Civic Center, 9,629/0.492/19,566
Castro, 12,594/0.662/19,027
Van Ness, 8,933/0.473/18,871
Bernal Heights South, 15,773/0.842/18,731
Mastro, 2,962/0.158/18,701
Bernal Heights, 24,818/1.320/18,313
Lone Mountain, 7,081/0.386/18,330
Noe Valley, 20,993/1.147/18,308
Bernal Heights North, 8,573/0.470/18,230
Upper Market, 2,911/0.163/17,858
Park Merced, 6,834/0.387/17,648
Silver Terrace, 8,499/0.485/17,535
Excelsior, 23,528/1.350/17,422
Central Sunset, 20,196/1.176/17,171
All Philadelphia Neighborhoods with a Density of 17,129+ Combined Area: 25.545 sq. miles Combined Population: 544,604 Population Per Square Mile: 21,319
All San Francisco neighborhoods with a density of 17,129+ Combined Area: 29.253 sq. miles. Combined Population: 655,534 Population Per Square Mile: 22,750
Top 10 Neighborhoods, Philadelphia
Combined Area: 3.082 sq. miles
Combined Population: 93,517
Population Per square Mile: 30,342
Top 10 Neighborhoods, San Francisco
Combined Area: 4.722 sq. miles.
Combined Population: 206,040
Persons Per sqauare Mile: 43,634
So if this data is correct(and I welcome scrutiny cause Id rather have correct data than 'win' some argument), then San Francisco's 29 most dense square miles are more dense than Philadelphia's 25 most dense square miles.
And there it is. Something that was immediately obvious to me upon visiting Philly for the first time (that it is less dense than SF), has been detailed in...well, lots of detail (or should i say MORE detail, as i already attempted a similar/smaller scale comparison with census tracts). Lets see how some of the Philly boosters try to spin this one in their favor...
Everyone knows that the average person from Philadelphia is way tougher than the average person from California. Especially San Francisco.
I bet I could take on 10 people from SF. By myself.
I could probably walk in an Oakland hood, talk a lot of trash, and nothing will happen to me. If some Californian did that in Philadelphia or Baltimore, forget it, it's done
Yea...you definitely should try that in East Oakland.
And there it is. Something that was immediately obvious to me upon visiting Philly for the first time (that it is less dense than SF), has been detailed in...well, lots of detail (or should i say MORE detail, as i already attempted a similar/smaller scale comparison with census tracts). Lets see how some of the Philly boosters try to spin this one in their favor...
And mumbai is denser than NYC, does that make it more urban? LA is denser than Rome, does that make it more urban? Density is only one element of urbanity, and is far from being the sole critera. Barracks, Jails, etc. are all very dense, does that make them urban? Urbanity is mostly about accessability, in which case the bay area can't compete. Philly is easily accessable to nearly 30 million ppl.
And there it is. Something that was immediately obvious to me upon visiting Philly for the first time (that it is less dense than SF), has been detailed in...well, lots of detail (or should i say MORE detail, as i already attempted a similar/smaller scale comparison with census tracts). Lets see how some of the Philly boosters try to spin this one in their favor...
Well, so much of this conversation has been about Oakland(my fault I guess(LOL)), that I totally forgot to compare Philly to the City itself.
Anyway, here's the Top 5 neighborhoods of each city:
Top 5 Philadelphia Neighborhoods Combined Area: 1.066 sq. miles
Combined Population: 34,320
Population Per Square Mile: 32,195
Top 5 SF Neighborhoods Combined Area: 1.421 sq. miles
Combined Population: 78,110
Population Per Square Mile: 54,968
Philly is very urban, but it seems like you're setting Philly's version of urbanity as the only real definition of urbanity without considering broader definitions of it.
I don't think it's the "only real definition of urban."
Oakland, with its single family homes, yards and driveways, is not as urban as Philadelphia. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it. How do you add up detached housing, yards, and driveways and come up with "urban?"
And there it is. Something that was immediately obvious to me upon visiting Philly for the first time (that it is less dense than SF), has been detailed in...well, lots of detail (or should i say MORE detail, as i already attempted a similar/smaller scale comparison with census tracts). Lets see how some of the Philly boosters try to spin this one in their favor...
Dude, San Francisco is 47 square miles! That's tiny. That's a full 21 square miles smaller than DC, which is also small. And that's like the only real urban area in the whole freakin' Metro area. San Jose is a huge suburb. Richmond is suburban. Oakland is largely suburban. Philadelphia is 135 square miles and most of that is rowhouse neighborhoods with bodegas, corner stores and hoagie shops. There is much more "city" to Philadelphia than there is to the Bay Area, period.
At this point, it doesn't matter what I say, it seems. Nineties Flava posts pics of one of "Oakland's densest neighborhoods," and I completely exposed the pics for the fraud that they were using Google maps. And you guys can't point and say, "Oh, you're just cherrypicking the least dense areas" because he actually chose the pictures.
For your viewing entertainment, here's the intersection again. Notice how less than a block from a shining example of urbanity, you devolve into a neighborhood that couldn't even measure up to Trenton when it comes to urbanity.
Which one of these scenes looks more urban to you? Don't evade the question.
After posting these pics, I was accused by 18Montclair of cherrypicking (even though that's exactly what Nineties Flava did). "That neighborhood is too close to the core," he said, which it's really not given how the city's laid out, but whatever. So I go all the way to the far Northeast and post this neighborhood.
His response: "Find an upscale neighborhood like that!" Upscale neighborhoods obviously have nothing to do with the question of which city is more urban.
You have to actively search for non-dense, non-rowhouse neighborhoods in Philly. I mean, you really have to look. You'd have to intentionally focus on the far Northwest, the far Northeast, or the stretch of City Line Ave that borders Bala-Cynwyd. And that's pretty much what 18Montclair did, too. I mean, seriously, who grows up in Philadelphia without living in a rowhouse at some point in their life? That's like living in NYC and never living in an apartment. It's more the exception than the rule.
While we're at it, how about we compare USA men's soccer to Brazilian men's soccer? Or USA Men's basketball to Egypt Men's basketball?
This is a sport we cherish. Almost every boy growing up in Philadelphia put in his two months at the gym doing his "one, two...one, two, pivot, one, two...one' two, cover...one, two...one, two...bob, shovel hook, now upper cut." We've even got girls here that would give you guys the business LOL.
And there it is. Something that was immediately obvious to me upon visiting Philly for the first time (that it is less dense than SF), has been detailed in...well, lots of detail (or should i say MORE detail, as i already attempted a similar/smaller scale comparison with census tracts). Lets see how some of the Philly boosters try to spin this one in their favor...
Well based on the reference of city density overall this appears to be 2000 census data in the source. Remember that the core of the city grew by 24% in population over the last 10 years. Even said the density in the core would still be a little higher in SF, I think that has been established. But in terms of continuity of urbanity, yes this is where Philly to me seperates. Not all are great areas, but some are very nice and many more are just fine.
In the core 1, 2, 3sq miles SF is a bit higher, after that this changes; which also means this is where the areas in Philly starts to maintain/exceed higher density when compared to SF. Based on the Montclair data it looks close at 25 sq miles (again i think this was 2000 data and phillys growth came in the core not the extremities since the last census) then exceeds SF at 47 sq miles, maintains to 135 sq miles and also has a density over 10K ppsm in the core 200 sq miles. So ok yes the central portion is more dense. The footprint of city (bay area) is not as large. Also the density of Philly in the core 5.2 sq miles is today at 30K ppsm; while there are more dense areas this is not paltry. This core also includes 3 highways a bridge head and 400 acreas of parkland. SF is denser in the core but to say that Old City, Rittenhouse, Washington Sq, Fitler Sq, Bella Vist, Art Museum Districk, No Libs, Queen Village are not urban is silly. Another part I like is that Philly in core actually has a lot of areas for expanded population that are virtually non deveopled areas that can add another 100K to the area without hardly any impact on any current neighborhoods.
Also with all the expanding of place and adding to SF to get to 135 sq miles; one thing never addressed by this comparison is a 200 sq mile area in the core around Philly that is a little over 10K ppsm. This adds the places on borders of Philly some of which are at 16+K ppsm desnity. Like parts of SF/Bay (though to me not as much honestly) the city does not end at the borders in Philly.
So what is established to me is that SF has a more dense core (small footprint) - they are similar from probably 7/10-25/30 sq miles. Philly pulls ahead on density from there out to about 200 sq miles (including a comparative footprint to the size of SF and/or Philly). Then SF burbs become more dense but honestly are burbs urban in the sense being discussed
So they both have density, ok
The part and beyond ghetto looking areas where I also think there has been little discussion is all the industrial complex mess in Philly, for better or worse there is far more in Philly which also adds to the urbanity. It may not be preety but it sure is urban, even in spots where no one lives.
Quite honestly on topic the notion of how can anyone claim Philly is more urban to me is silly. On urbanity only NYC and Chicago to me feel more urban than philly, urbanity in philly comes with some warts but urban it is. I have personally always felt it to be more urban than the bay area, but others may feel differently.
Last edited by kidphilly; 08-02-2011 at 10:41 PM..
Well based on the reference of city density overall this appears to be 2000 census data in the source. Remember that the core of the city grew by 24% in population over the last 10 years. Even said the density in the core would still be a little higher in SF, I think that has been established. But in terms of continuity of urbanity, yes this is where Philly to me seperates. Not all are great areas, but some are very nice and many more are just fine.
In the core 1, 2, 3sq miles SF is a bit higher, after that this changes; which also means this is where the areas in Philly starts to maintain/exceed higher density when compared to SF. Based on the Montclair data it looks close at 25 sq miles (again i think this was 2000 data and phillys growth came in the core not the extremities since the last census) then exceeds SF at 47 sq milee, maintains to 135 sq miles and also has a density over 10K ppsm in the core 200 sq miles. So ok yes the central portion is more dense. the footprint of city is not as large. Also the density of Philly in the core 5.2 sq miles is today at 30K ppsm; while there are more dense areas this is not paltry. This core also includes 3 highways a bridge head and 400 acreas of parkland. SF is denser in the core but to say that Old City, Rittenhouse, Washington Sq, Fitler Sq, Bella Vist, Art Museum Districk, No Libs, Queen Village are not urban is silly. Another part I like is that Philly in core actually has a lot of areas for expanded population that are virtually non deveopled areas that can add another 100K to the area without hardly any impact on any current neighborhoods.
Also with all the expanding of place and adding to SF to get to 135 sq miles; one thing never addressed by this comparison is a 200 sq mile area in the core around Philly that is a little over 10K ppsm. This adds the places on borders of Philly some of which are at 16+K ppsm desnity. Like parts of SF (though to me not as much honestly) the city does not end at the borders in Philly.
This is kind of a silly pissing match. SF has a more dense core (small footprint) - they are similar from probably 7/10-25/30 sq miles. Philly pulls ahead on density from there out to about 200 sq miles (including a comparative footprint to the size of SF). Then SF burbs become more dense but honestly are burbs urban in the sense being discussed
So they both have density, ok
The part and beyond ghetto looking areas where i also think there has been little discussion is all the industrial complex mess in Philly, for better or worse there is far more in Philly which also adds to the urbanity. It may not be preety but it sure is urban, even in spots where no one lives.
The Bay Area is just a different animal than Philly, but so is New York. There are more physical boundaries that create a unique environment. You wont have a continuous 135 sq miles until you get to San Jose which is 176 sq miles. I can agree, Philly is more contiguous, but that doesnt take away from the Bay at all.
Suburbs are a form of urbanity, whether its here or there its still part of the metro areas.
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