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Yes, but I think ben around's point is that the government did not account for a significant amount of the job growth. Neither did the U of M, really.
Medtronic, St. Jude's, 3M, Cargill, all of the big hospitals, financial services firms, and retailers are pretty much developments of the post-Industrial flight Era in the Twin Cities. If you removed the government or the university, it would have an impact, but not a profound one. Maybe in human capitol, but we would still have a lot of that coming out of the local universities + UW system + UofM system, even if the main campus were elsewhere-- same way that Chicago is primary beneficiary of the human capitol at the UofI.
You appear to be looking at the government and education sector in isolation for much of your argument, save the loss of human capital. The growth of the government and education sectors also leads to growth of ancillary/supporting sectors. It's not just the government employees, it's the shops that serve them, the financial planners, the insurance agents, the restaurants, et cetera. And don't forget a whole university hospital system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by srsmn
If the state government were the metro's biggest employer, downtown St. Paul would be much, much more lively-- simply not the case
Newsflash: state government is the metro's biggest employer, by a wide margin. The federal government is the metro's 3rd-largest employer in the metro area and university is the metro's 5th largest. (Mayo Clinic is the 2nd and Target the 4th.) Don't underestimate the importance of government largesse in supporting the TC economy.
I would agree that Milwaukeeans do not dislike Chicagoans-----yes the sports rivalries are bitter---but thats it as far as rivalry.
I agree that Milwaukeeans like their identity separated from Chicago-----Milwaukee has become a very fine city making major progress in the last 15-20 years----indeed, very few people make fun of the great city of Milwaukee any longer.
I think a lot of Chicagoans enjoy coming up to Milwaukee once in awhile---quite a few have purchased condos in downtown Milw. I honestly cannot detect a lot of enmity between the two cities except for sports rivalries.
Lets put in this way----Chicago is a great city with fine folks----Milwaukee has certainly also become a very fine city with great folks----enough said.
I would agree that Milwaukeeans do not dislike Chicagoans-----yes the sports rivalries are bitter---but thats it as far as rivalry.
I agree that Milwaukeeans like their identity separated from Chicago-----Milwaukee has become a very fine city making major progress in the last 15-20 years----indeed, very few people make fun of the great city of Milwaukee any longer.
I think a lot of Chicagoans enjoy coming up to Milwaukee once in awhile---quite a few have purchased condos in downtown Milw. I honestly cannot detect a lot of enmity between the two cities except for sports rivalries.
Lets put in this way----Chicago is a great city with fine folks----Milwaukee has certainly also become a very fine city with great folks----enough said.
I agree with you. One of my brothers lives in Chicago, and he LOVES to visit Milwaukee. He recently said that he didn't know it was such a cool city, and that there were so many things to do. They usually spend the night, and make a week-end out of it.
I'm guessing that is sarcasm, because compared Columbus, the Twin Cities' capitol and university influence is extremely muted. Govt or university "news" hardly ever makes the....news.
If you think it wouldn't have a profound impact on the economy of the Twin Cities if the seat of government and the university relocated to some place in the middle of the state, then you're a bloody fool.
And if you think that the state government and the UM are the primary drivers of MSP's economy, you are the biggest fool.
You appear to be looking at the government and education sector in isolation for much of your argument, save the loss of human capital. The growth of the government and education sectors also leads to growth of ancillary/supporting sectors. It's not just the government employees, it's the shops that serve them, the financial planners, the insurance agents, the restaurants, et cetera. And don't forget a whole university hospital system.
Newsflash: state government is the metro's biggest employer, by a wide margin. The federal government is the metro's 3rd-largest employer in the metro area and university is the metro's 5th largest. (Mayo Clinic is the 2nd and Target the 4th.) Don't underestimate the importance of government largesse in supporting the TC economy.
What?? Mayo's not even in the metro, it's 75 miles south, in Rochester. I think you must be quoting state stats, not metro.
Compared to Atlanta(9.9%), Memphis (10.0 %), Charlotte(10.2%), and Las Vegas(13.3%)
(sigh!) Mpls/St Paul is NOT Rust Belt. And it's 150 miles away from the nearest Great Lake. (I've seen MN classified as a Great Lake state because it touches Lake Superior, but IMO it's arguable: that definition also includes Indiana & Pennsylvania. Really?)
You appear to be looking at the government and education sector in isolation for much of your argument, save the loss of human capital. The growth of the government and education sectors also leads to growth of ancillary/supporting sectors. It's not just the government employees, it's the shops that serve them, the financial planners, the insurance agents, the restaurants, et cetera. And don't forget a whole university hospital system.
Newsflash: state government is the metro's biggest employer, by a wide margin. The federal government is the metro's 3rd-largest employer in the metro area and university is the metro's 5th largest. (Mayo Clinic is the 2nd and Target the 4th.) Don't underestimate the importance of government largesse in supporting the TC economy.
1.) No, I'm not. But even taking that into account, the dent in the local economy would be more minimal than you think. The university medical systems would be here, anyway. This is the largest metropolitan area in the state...there's no way they wouldn't open the hospitals here either directly after (or even before) they did in some campus town. And the restaurants/hospitality makes a minimal impact, in all honesty. If that weren't the case, the hospitality industry would be stronger in St. Paul and weaker in Minneapolis and Bloomington, which it's definitely not.
2.) Yeah, but that is counting all government employees-- mail carriers, teachers, welfare agents, probation officers, et al. Jobs that would be there with or without the Capitol. The Capitol adds legislators, pages, staffers, archivists, etc., but state, county and city services aren't going to all of the sudden vanish if you picked up the Capitol and moved it elsewhere. And if you look at cities that aren't capitals (NY, Chicago, etc.), you would find that there is a *huge* public sector in those cities also.
So, yeah...if you're arguing that removing every government job from the Twin Cities would hurt the economy, I guess I can't argue. It would also be anarchy, too (and =/= removing the state capitol from St. Paul), so that's kind of a dumb and moot argument to make...
3.) My argument-- and I think Ben Around's argument-- is that equating MSP to just another university/gov't town belies a *serious* ignorance about how the economy works up here.
Sorry, bud, but you're arguing with locals, here
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) was your clue.
