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I would put Boston over Philly. I didn't look up figures, but my sense is that it's wealthier and leads in education. I'd rather live in Philly though.
Baltimore certainly has a unique identity. That's why I live here. It's a fascinating mix of Mid-Atlantic and Appalachian culture that has developed independent of DC or Philadelphia. Baltimore has its own accent, it's own cuisine, it's own colloquial idiosyncrasies. I would say that it's identity is more unique than DC even, which is a melting pot of people from all over the country. However, this thread is about power, and I would agree that DC saps power from Baltimore, hence me putting it behind Pittsburgh, Rochester, and Buffalo (albeit just barely behind the later).
Rochester and Buffalo are almost interchangeable as they're almost identical is size and have similar problems. However, I think that Rochester's stronger economy (it's the only metro in Upstate New York not losing population), old money, and cultural institutions give it an edge over Buffalo's international location. I'd still prefer to live in Buffalo because I think it's more fun and has more character.
Hartford is an oddball. I don't see it's MSA as being particularly in important in the region; I'd place it above Providence, Syracuse, and New Haven, but below the other cities in the top ten. However, Hartford's CSA includes Springfield, Amherst, Northampton, and Holyoke in Massachusetts. If you include those other cities, Harford's prominence would be much higher in the list. Likely between Pittsburgh and Rochester.
Ranked by MSA
1- NYC
2- DC
3- Boston
4- Philly
5- Pittsburgh
6- Rochester
7- Buffalo-Niagara Falls
8- Baltimore
9- Albany-Troy-Schenectady
10-Hartford
I put Philadelphia ahead of Boston because of the bigger population and overall GDP, and I don't see Boston overcoming in either statistic anytime soon (opposers can post growth % all they want, its a hypothetical). Boston leads in education but Philadelphia is an education capital in its own right not far behind. We aren't talking Houston here. UPenn is one of the top ivy schools and schools in the world with Harvard and Boston having MIT as well.
Philadelphia has more colleges and universities as well as more students getting educated by Philadelphia area institutions (400,000).
DC has the political importance, but im taking into account the overall city and not just one niche industry.
I put Philadelphia ahead of Boston because of the bigger population and overall GDP, and I don't see Boston overcoming in either statistic anytime soon (opposers can post growth % all they want, its a hypothetical). Boston leads in education but Philadelphia is an education capital in its own right not far behind. We aren't talking Houston here. UPenn is one of the top ivy schools and schools in the world with Harvard and Boston having MIT as well.
Philadelphia has more colleges and universities as well as more students getting educated by Philadelphia area institutions (400,000).
DC has the political importance, but im taking into account the overall city and not just one niche industry.
For whatever it's worth, Boston's GDP is higher per captia. But if this thread is about power and influence, I'm not sure if that matters. It would require more investigation. After all, the Detroit Metro's GDP is higher than that of Silicon Valley, but clearly Silicon Valley holds more importance, power, and influence.
However, Boston's CSA trumps Philly's CSA, by a large margin, both in terms of population and GDP.
If we're looking at the MSA level, I'll give you Philly for the No. 3 spot--maybe. But if we're looking at CSAs, No. 3 is clearly Boston.
Last edited by Dawn.Davenport; 09-07-2015 at 08:07 PM..
I would put Boston over Philly. I didn't look up figures, but my sense is that it's wealthier and leads in education. I'd rather live in Philly though.
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When you consider COL differences, particularly in terms of housing, the "real" wealth (e.g., cost adjusted) of the Philly and Boston areas are extremely similar.
Lets remember that when comparing Boston and Philadelphia, its 48 sq mi vs. 134 sq mi in terms of city.
Im dubious of any rankings where a city goes from 4.5 million MSA to 8 million CSA. It seems rather disingenuous and even facetious in a way. Providence, RI is no way a part of Boston culture other than sports.
CSA definitions are extremely loose and don't account for those who work from home.
It makes sense for the Bay Area but even that's a stretch. Washington and Baltimore do not function as one area, and neither does Boston and Providence.
Allentown is culturally Philadelphia including teams yet part of the New York metro? Get real.
Why don't we just skip CSAs and go right to megalopolis while we're at it.
However, this thread is about power, and I would agree that DC saps power from Baltimore, hence me putting it behind Pittsburgh, Rochester, and Buffalo (albeit just barely behind the later).
HUH??? No way. The Baltimore metro is more than twice the size of Buffalo and Rochester. I have no skin in this game, and as an outsider I can tell you objectively that Baltimore is much higher profile and more influential than the other two. Baltimore is a major 2 million+ market, and in a different league than Buffalo and Rochester, all on its own. I'd say Pittsburgh is equal.
Lets remember that when comparing Boston and Philadelphia, its 48 sq mi vs. 134 sq mi in terms of city.
Im dubious of any rankings where a city goes from 4.5 million MSA to 8 million CSA. It seems rather disingenuous and even facetious in a way. Providence, RI is no way a part of Boston culture other than sports.
CSA definitions are extremely loose and don't account for those who work from home.
It makes sense for the Bay Area but even that's a stretch. Washington and Baltimore do not function as one area, and neither does Boston and Providence.
Allentown is culturally Philadelphia including teams yet part of the New York metro? Get real.
Why don't we just skip CSAs and go right to megalopolis while we're at it.
Because CSAs are determined by commuter patterns, which are tied to economic activity, I think it makes sense to talk about CSAs in terms of what Northeastern cities have the most power and influence. Does that mean it's the only way to think about the thread? Of course not. But it's definitely worth our time to consider. If we were talking about another issues, like say, urban revitalization, a discussion of CSAs would matter less.
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter if I or you rank Philly or Boston 3rd or 4th. This question has no right or wrong answer; I just like exploring the multiple angles from which one could approach the thread. As I said, I like Philly more than Boston, so I have no personal stake in the matter.
And, to that end, I'd love to look at this Allentown thing a bit more. If you want to talk culture, Allentown seems to resonate more with Harrisburg or the Wyoming Valley (Wilkes-Barre) than it does with either Philadelphia or New York. However if it's included in the NYC CSA, than it must mean that due to commuter patters it's more closely tied (economically) to New York--that's interesting! I'd love to hear more about that from someone who's more familiar with that part of Pennsylvania.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLgasm
HUH??? No way. The Baltimore metro is more than twice the size of Buffalo and Rochester. I have no skin in this game, and as an outsider I can tell you objectively that Baltimore is much higher profile and more influential than the other two. Baltimore is a major 2 million+ market, and in a different league than Buffalo and Rochester, all on its own. I'd say Pittsburgh is equal.
This is fair. But Baltimore does poorly for a city it's size. All the money, the jobs, and the talent go to DC. There is a lot I like about Baltimore and it's more than just a big ghetto, but it certainly does not have money, influence, or power. Hence, many people who live in Baltimore's suburbs work in DC. Baltimore lacks diversity (everyone here is American) and even lacks many transplants from other states. That's because there is not much here--at all. While Baltimore and Pittsburgh might be on par in terms of population, Pittsburgh is decades beyond Baltimore in terms of economy and revitalization. The city, in my opinion, most like Baltimore is Cincinnati.
Last edited by Dawn.Davenport; 09-07-2015 at 09:47 PM..
And, to that end, I'd love to look at this Allentown thing a bit more.
The Lehigh Valley Forum has had many threads regarding sphere of influence Philly vs NYC. Philly is always the winner in their discussions. Dont let the convoluted connect the dots commuter cmsa fool you.
And please dont bring Trenton into this.
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