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that's what opens up Toronto to being a diverse capitol of NA outside of NYC; it doesn't really have a distinct image or "culture" compared to the other three. It's the same way with the Urban youth culture there as well; it's like a blend of UK, Caribbean, and American subcultures/accents/etc.
That depends how you define what "Canadian" identity is. French Canadian culture is pretty unique, that everyone can agree on. Anglo-Canadian culture, at least from an American perspective, isn't all that defined.
On top of that, add on the fact that Toronto itself is a relatively young city. It really only got it's start as a major international city in the 1970s when all the banks moved from Montreal to Toronto because of the surge of Quebecois nationalism.
Excuse me Red John, but NY and LA arent part of the thread
Post number 19 had a good theory that I wanted to see play out. Essentially how I interpreted his idea was that take these 3 American Piranhas and drop them in the shark tank with the Great Whites of New York and Los Angeles, then observe the eventual results. I did just that.
I might just make a new thread of these 4 as a unit against New York and Los Angeles simply on the front of diversity. I'll have to do it again with Toronto added in when I get back to London on Monday.
I sort of wanted to see how this trio of likesized American PCSAs compared to the hypercity New York and megacity, soon-to-be hypercity Los Angeles. It was an interesting proposition at face value that didn't wield as encouraging results as I'd have hoped for. The trio of Chicago, Washington DC-Baltimore, and San Francisco Bay Area combined for 19 out of 110; Washington DC-Baltimore (8), San Francisco Bay Area (6), and Chicago (5), respectively.
I next want to see if adding Toronto and making them a 4-Pair (Washington DC-San Francisco-Chicago-Toronto), how they would stack up as a sole unit to the megacities New York + Los Angeles. I may just make another thread for that though, since as you pointed New York and Los Angeles aren't in this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair
and I counted about 40 countries where the Bay Area led DC and Chicago but didnt get credit
Sure it got credit.
Post number 71 in this thread (my post) had a compilation of direct statistical comparison of overseas born populations of San Francisco Bay Area CSA versus Washington DC-Baltimore CSA versus Chicago CSA.
I color schemed them so that way it would be easy for all to identify the leading city under each national identity and so that way it is easy to count them all up at a later point. Generally each color scheme represented each city, Dark Green the color of Chicago, Dark Red the color of the San Francisco Bay Area, and Dark Blue (alternatively "Navy") the color of Washington DC-Baltimore.
The results of that compilation were Washington DC-Baltimore CSA lead the group with 46, followed by San Francisco Bay Area CSA with 40, and Chicago CSA with the remaining 24.
Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 03-04-2016 at 05:26 PM..
I think there was a thread specifically addressing this between Toronto and Chicago and with Toronto's biggest asset being its extremely large and diverse foreign-born population and Chicago's arguments being an arguably better-known city worldwide, larger number of large corporate headquarters, and having more renowned civic institutions (colleges, museum, and performing arts companies).
Being more 'renowned' doesn't necessarily mean better. They may be more renown in the U.S for example. There's not a lot of people in Thailand, Sri Lanka, Morocco, Venezuela etc etc that are aware of Chicago or Toronto's institutional or cultural prowess. Even within N.A I don't know if there is a institution vs institution comparison that would tip the scales for one over the other. Each can cherry pick I assume. I could say Toronto is a bigger live theatre city than Chicago (true) but is it more renown or even better - I really can't say. There are great theatre companies here as i'm sure there are in Chicago. I could say well Toronto has a larger Islamic Museum and cultural centre than Chicago so therefore Chicago falls short. Someone else could counter that Chicago has the Art Institute as example (comparing a cherry to a banana in terms of pieces). It would take someone fairly intimately familiar to and experienced with both to compare all the institutions and come up with a score that would be considered definitive and again - it could be personal ie personal preference or bias that tips the scale for one over the other than an objective 'win'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julianpieohmy
Thank you, I sincerely appreciate the offer. Funny that you mention your initial experience w/ Barcelona as I too thought it was slightly overrated.
Now it seems I have to go back to go back to Toronto and Barcelona. lol
Oh you are welcome and you don't have to come but if you do we'll do our best to direct you to the best experiences we know and maybe you'll have a better time/impression.
that's what opens up Toronto to being a diverse capitol of NA outside of NYC; it doesn't really have a distinct image or "culture" compared to the other three. It's the same way with the Urban youth culture there as well; it's like a blend of UK, Caribbean, and American subcultures/accents/etc.
This is what I was saying earlier about cosmopolitanism.. I think Toronto makes a good case because you don't have that strong unified identity throughout. Its a mish mash of everything. It doesn't mean better it just is what it is. Some people prefer places with a stronger, unique and more pervasive identity but I think those places have less of a claim to cosmopolitanism. They have a stronger identity but I don't think you can be really strong in both - you're stronger in one or the other. If you have a strong connection/ affiliation to the identity of one place are you truly 'cosmopolitan'
60 years ago Toronto was not cosmo at all.. It had a strong identity but it was extraordinarily waspy.. In only 60 years its gone from that to obviously (as I think Red John did a good job showing) one of the most diverse places in the world in such a short period of time. There is no strong affiliation to the place by so many newcomers because they haven't rooted here very long. By the time the do others come in and take their place very quickly. Red John posted earlier that there were 9200 Syrians in the Toronto CMA in 2011.. March 2016 I can confirm that that number doubled - over 8000 Syrian refugees arrived here in only the last 3 months. That's some serious FOB infusion. How the heck can all these newcomers have a strong affiliation to the place.
This is what I was saying earlier about cosmopolitanism.. I think Toronto makes a good case because you don't have that strong unified identity throughout. Its a mish mash of everything. It doesn't mean better it just is what it is. Some people prefer places with a stronger, unique and more pervasive identity but I think those places have less of a claim to cosmopolitanism. They have a stronger identity but I don't think you can be really strong in both - you're stronger in one or the other. If you have a strong connection/ affiliation to the identity of one place are you truly 'cosmopolitan'
60 years ago Toronto was not cosmo at all.. It had a strong identity but it was extraordinarily waspy.. In only 60 years its gone from that to obviously (as I think Red John did a good job showing) one of the most diverse places in the world in such a short period of time. There is no strong affiliation to the place by so many newcomers because they haven't rooted here very long. By the time the do others come in and take their place very quickly. Red John posted earlier that there were 9200 Syrians in the Toronto CMA in 2011.. March 2016 I can confirm that that number doubled - over 8000 Syrian refugees arrived here in only the last 3 months. That's some serious FOB infusion. How the heck can all these newcomers have a strong affiliation to the place.
While I agree that Toronto is definitely cosmopolitan in its own way, its diversity is only a small part of that. I think the cultural institutions in Toronto are very underrated along with the educational institutions. Plus being the main economic engine of the country and the international business connections that come along with that also gives it that claim.
I lived in Toronto for many years as you know and honestly while growing up around a nice variety of races and nationalities is a nice thing, your average Torontonian does not really take full advantage of being around all these ethnic enclaves. For the most part people stick to themselves due to language barriers and people from outside that circle cant truly get in if they dont learn a new language and we all know that is not the case for most people. I never really learned about other cultures intimately until I started traveling. Living within Toronto did not afford me any unique cosmopolitan experience that I could not have experienced elsewhere.
Being more 'renowned' doesn't necessarily mean better. They may be more renown in the U.S for example. There's not a lot of people in Thailand, Sri Lanka, Morocco, Venezuela etc etc that are aware of Chicago or Toronto's institutional or cultural prowess. Even within N.A I don't know if there is a institution vs institution comparison that would tip the scales for one over the other. Each can cherry pick I assume. I could say Toronto is a bigger live theatre city than Chicago (true) but is it more renown or even better - I really can't say. There are great theatre companies here as i'm sure there are in Chicago. I could say well Toronto has a larger Islamic Museum and cultural centre than Chicago so therefore Chicago falls short. Someone else could counter that Chicago has the Art Institute as example (comparing a cherry to a banana in terms of pieces). It would take someone fairly intimately familiar to and experienced with both to compare all the institutions and come up with a score that would be considered definitive and again - it could be personal ie personal preference or bias that tips the scale for one over the other than an objective 'win'
Oh you are welcome and you don't have to come but if you do we'll do our best to direct you to the best experiences we know and maybe you'll have a better time/impression.
Cheers
Sure, but in the case of most direct comparisons between institutions in Toronto and Chicago specifically, it is oftentimes that Chicago's so and so is both more renowned and generally recognized as "better" than its Toronto equivalent.
- Chicago came in first 5 times, and dead last a group record 59 times.
- San Francisco Bay Area came in first 6 times, and dead last a runner up 26 times.
- Washington DC-Baltimore came in first 8 times (most in a blowout manner), and dead last 15 times.
- Los Angeles came in first a runner up 21 times, and dead last a rare 7 times.
- New York came in first a group record 68 times, and dead last a scant record 3 times.
Out of the total 110 countries and/or independent or dependent territories the United States Census Bureau has overseas born data for.
My current idea leads me to wonder that after I add Toronto and it's Greater Golden Horseshoe area into the mix, which cities lose most ground and how Toronto fares overall. From eyeballing the Toronto CMA's numbers right now, real quickly, Toronto actually appears to hold its own versus New York the way Los Angeles does. So that is good news for the Toronto supporters that voted for it in the poll.
Hey RedJohn would you mind doing the real most diverse city in the nation....Houston?
I'll do it, no problem, in fact I will go ahead and do the entire North American munchkin tier (Boston, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Montreal, Philadelphia, Detroit) altogether. Just give me a day or two to put it all together.
Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 03-05-2016 at 05:55 PM..
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but if you do we'll do our best to direct you to the best experiences we know and maybe you'll have a better time/impression.
