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Oh please what hell are you talking about....Pittsburgh is a NE is city....period...I've have been every East Coast/NE city....Have you ever really been to Pittsburgh because it damn sure doesn't sound like..
I get so sick of people trying to claim its not NE because its not right on the Coast therefore its doesn't fit in, like the NE is type of city club...
Please! Everything damn near about Pittsburgh screams NE city except again its not right on the Coast.
And yet someone from the Northeast would vehemently disagree with you................... Culturally; People from NYC, Jersey, Conn, Boston, Rhode Island, Philly don't feel the same connection (both positive or negative) to a place like Pittsburgh or Buffalo as they do to each other.
Buffalo & Pittsburgh simply do not enter into the cultural context. They are not part of the everyday lexicon.
I live in Scranton, which is a northeastern city, and I see more similarities in Scranton to Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh than I do to NYC, Philly, Boston, etc. Culturally, Scranton is closer to those cities, even though we're only 2 hours to NYC and Philly and 45 minutes to the NJ border.
Look at a map, also, Buffalo, Pittsburgh are both part of northeastern states, and Cleveland, even though Ohio is somehow considered "midwestern" is geographically northeastern. There is nothing western on a map about Ohio.
I live in Scranton, which is a northeastern city, and I see more similarities in Scranton to Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh than I do to NYC, Philly, Boston, etc. Culturally, Scranton is closer to those cities, even though we're only 2 hours to NYC and Philly and 45 minutes to the NJ border.
Look at a map, also, Buffalo, Pittsburgh are both part of northeastern states, and Cleveland, even though Ohio is somehow considered "midwestern" is geographically northeastern. There is nothing western on a map about Ohio.
In the modern sense yes, but Ohio is different from the Northeast IMO especially the flatness that isn't part of the coastal plain. Besides the coastal plain, nearly the entire Northeast is somewhat hilly.
You don't see things holistically. Pittsburgh counts 9 counties to get to their magic number of 2.3 million. I don't think Pittsburgh is that big. I lived there. Cleveland is very dirty. Not trying to be mean, but it was hood. Wouldn't live there no matter how good the economy would be doing or not. Buffalo, definately not perfect has similar city populations with Pittsburgh. As Cleveland is declining, who knows what there numbers will go down too. Cleveland also counts Akron -45 minutes away. Rochester's furthest suburbs extend into Buffalo's furthest suburbs. If, they were ten minutes closer, I guess The Buffalo-Rochester Metro and all inbetween make over 3 million. Buffalo loses population count because of its proximity to Canada. The US can't count Canadanian cities nearby because it's another country. But if you could count that area that is near Buffalo, your looking at roughly 2 million. I'm not talking an area many miles away. Canada and Buffalo are bordered by a river. Yes, Buffalo is smaller, but not in the way your trying to make it sound. And I don't consider Akron apart of Cleveland. Just as I don't consider about 6 or 7 counties some over an hour away being counted into the Pittsburgh metro. Buffalo counts two counties, Erie-their primary county and Niagara.
I don't understand why some cities can count so many more counties than others. Pittsburgh is a good example. I just didn't see why all these people from these other counties so far away were being counted. And why counties right next to Buffalo are ignored. The same goes for Cleveland. I guess that ten to fifteen minutes difference makes all the difference in the world. But the truth is, if you count the Buffalo CSA as including Rochester and their bi-national numbers from Canada, you are talking an area in so many square miles as between three and four million. If you count the suburbs inbetween Rochester and buffalo and the population in nearby Canada.
Wow, there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.
1st of all the Pittsburgh Metro includes 7 counties, not 9. And Cleveland does not include Akron in it's metro, even though they're bordering counties. Akron is included in the CSA making the population 2.9 million. Yes Buffalos metro only includes 2 counties, but Erie County is huge, over 1,000 sq miles, over twice the size of Cuyahoga County. And the Buffalo metro covers over 1,550 sq miles compared to Clevelands 2,000 sq miles yet Cleveland has 1 million more residents in it's metro. Pittsburgh does include a lot of land area at 5,400 sq miles, if Cleveland included that many it would have nearly 4 million.
Buffalo and Rochester are completely separate. They're nowhere near as close or connected as Cleveland/Akron, or even Cleveland/Canton. Downtown Buffalo and DT Rochester are 1 hour 15 mins apart. The same distance between DT Cleveland and DT Youngstown. Buffalos continuous development ends at Clarence, NY, Rochesters ends at North Chili, NY... that's over a 50 min separation between them. Cleveland and Akron on the other hand are completely built up between the 2 (excluding the National Park portion). The same thing from Cleveland-Canton. The Niagara Region of Canada at most is 430,000, and only a portion of that has any real connection to Buffalo, and it's not continuous development. With the Canadian portion, the Buffalo metro would be 1.4 million at most.
You say Cleveland is declining when Buffalo itself lost 11% of it's population in the last 10 years. Cleveland lost more at 17%, but all 3 metros lost a similar amount around 3-3.5%. And you say Cleveland is dirty/hood, I've spent lots of time in Buffalo and it's not much better if any. When you look at the "urban area" population, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are #21 and #22 in the country at 1.75m-1.8m while Buffalo is #38 at 975k. Whether you look at Urban area, MSA, CSA, or Region, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are nearly twice Buffalos size or more.
Last edited by BelieveInCleve; 08-12-2011 at 01:49 AM..
When it really comes down to it...these 3 cities are more similar than alike. And being a lifelong Scrantonian, these 3 cities would be bigger cities I wouldn't mind living in if I had to move to a bigger city....more down to earth than the cities closer to the coast. If I had to pick from the 3, I'd take Pittsburgh, more for weather than anything else.
Wow, there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.
1st of all the Pittsburgh Metro includes 7 counties, not 9. And Cleveland does not include Akron in it's metro, even though they're bordering counties. Akron is included in the CSA making the population 2.9 million. Yes Buffalos metro only includes 2 counties, but Erie County is huge, over 1,000 sq miles, over twice the size of Cuyahoga County. And the Buffalo metro covers over 1,550 sq miles compared to Clevelands 2,000 sq miles yet Cleveland has 1 million more residents in it's metro. Pittsburgh does include a lot of land area at 5,400 sq miles, if Cleveland included that many it would have nearly 4 million.
Buffalo and Rochester are completely separate. They're nowhere near as close or connected as Cleveland/Akron, or even Cleveland/Canton. Downtown Buffalo and DT Rochester are 1 hour 15 mins apart. The same distance between DT Cleveland and DT Youngstown. Buffalos continuous development ends at Clarence, NY, Rochesters ends at North Chili, NY... that's over a 50 min separation between them. Cleveland and Akron on the other hand are completely built up between the 2 (excluding the National Park portion). The same thing from Cleveland-Canton. The Niagara Region of Canada at most is 430,000, and only a portion of that has any real connection to Buffalo, and it's not continuous development. With the Canadian portion, the Buffalo metro would be 1.4 million at most.
You say Cleveland is declining when Buffalo itself lost 11% of it's population in the last 10 years. Cleveland lost more at 17%, but all 3 metros lost a similar amount around 3-3.5%. And you say Cleveland is dirty/hood, I've spent lots of time in Buffalo and it's not much better if any. When you look at the "urban area" population, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are #21 and #22 in the country at 1.75m-1.8m while Buffalo is #38 at 975k. Whether you look at Urban area, MSA, CSA, or Region, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are nearly twice Buffalos size or more.
Just some adjustments, if you included adjacent parts of Ontario, Buffalo's metro is closer to say 1.6 million.
Also, Genesee County is the only non metro county between the Buffalo and Rochester metros. Orleans County is in the Rochester metro and touches Niagara County. Genesee County used to be in the Rochester metro in the recent past. So, the metros do indeed touch.
Just some adjustments, if you included adjacent parts of Ontario, Buffalo's metro is closer to say 1.6 million.
Also, Genesee County is the only non metro county between the Buffalo and Rochester metros. Orleans County is in the Rochester metro and touches Niagara County. Genesee County used to be in the Rochester metro in the recent past. So, the metros do indeed touch.
<1.6 million would include the entire Niagara Region of Canada, which stretches nearly to Hamilton. The far majority of that is not only not suburban Buffalo, but there's no continuous development between them either.
I know that Orleans County is in the Rochester Metro and it borders Niagara County which is the Buffalo metro, but neither of them are the Principal county and the area that borders is very rural. Orleans County is a rural county that is losing population. The other 2 counties between the Buffalo and Rochester Metro, Genesee and Wyoming, are both rural as well and losing population. My other point was with continuous development, there's nearly a 50 mile gap of nothing between the 2 metros, and the downtowns are nearly 1 hour 20 mins apart.
My whole point was to bring out the facts to these few Buffalo posters who want to make up stuff to greatly exaggerate the population and land area of the "Buffalo area". I'm very familiar with Buffalo, I've been there many times and visited for months in Buffalo and Niagara Falls NY, and I've traveled the Canadian side including driving through to Toronto several times. Cleveland and Pittsburgh are much larger cities and areas. Adding the entire Niagara region of Canada would be odd enough, but adding Rochester (a separate unconnected metro of the same size) to boost Buffalos population to 2.6 million is ridiculous. You want an apples to apples comparison with that? You might as well merge Cleveland and Pittsburgh plus whats between, that would be 6.5 million lol... you see how ridiculous this is getting now? These few Buffalo posters are getting out of control lol.
Wow, there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.
1st of all the Pittsburgh Metro includes 7 counties, not 9. And Cleveland does not include Akron in it's metro, even though they're bordering counties. Akron is included in the CSA making the population 2.9 million. Yes Buffalos metro only includes 2 counties, but Erie County is huge, over 1,000 sq miles, over twice the size of Cuyahoga County. And the Buffalo metro covers over 1,550 sq miles compared to Clevelands 2,000 sq miles yet Cleveland has 1 million more residents in it's metro. Pittsburgh does include a lot of land area at 5,400 sq miles, if Cleveland included that many it would have nearly 4 million.
Buffalo and Rochester are completely separate. They're nowhere near as close or connected as Cleveland/Akron, or even Cleveland/Canton. Downtown Buffalo and DT Rochester are 1 hour 15 mins apart. The same distance between DT Cleveland and DT Youngstown. Buffalos continuous development ends at Clarence, NY, Rochesters ends at North Chili, NY... that's over a 50 min separation between them. Cleveland and Akron on the other hand are completely built up between the 2 (excluding the National Park portion). The same thing from Cleveland-Canton. The Niagara Region of Canada at most is 430,000, and only a portion of that has any real connection to Buffalo, and it's not continuous development. With the Canadian portion, the Buffalo metro would be 1.4 million at most.
You say Cleveland is declining when Buffalo itself lost 11% of it's population in the last 10 years. Cleveland lost more at 17%, but all 3 metros lost a similar amount around 3-3.5%. And you say Cleveland is dirty/hood, I've spent lots of time in Buffalo and it's not much better if any. When you look at the "urban area" population, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are #21 and #22 in the country at 1.75m-1.8m while Buffalo is #38 at 975k. Whether you look at Urban area, MSA, CSA, or Region, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are nearly twice Buffalos size or more.
Where do I start first. When I gave Clevelands numbers I was talking CSA. Rochester and Buffalo downtown to dowtown is an hour. I used to take that alot. Akron to Cleveland is 45 minutes. So, My reason stands. BUffalo and Rochester sort of share Batavia which isn't really a suburb; however, it is almost directly inbetween those two metros. I agree though, Buffalo and Rochester don't really feel connected even though they are only 60 miles apart. Buffalo loses population because of Canada. If you took that population alone, Buffalo's MSA would either be equal too or larger than Milwaukee. And it is only about fifteen miles and Buffalo and Rochester would have been in one CSA, which would have easily been over three million.
As far as Pittsburgh I counted nine, but I'm probably wrong. For the sake of agreeing with you, I'll just take your word for it. But still seven counties to two. No matter how you look at it, it makes a big difference. City to city (and I've lived in both ask me any question if you think I'm lieing) Buffalo and Pittsburgh seem big in different ways. Downtown seems a bit larger than downtown Buffalo. However in Pitt, you only really have the strip area that extends. Some of their other areas are far away from downtown, ex shadyside, Oakland, Squirrel hill, etc. In Buffalo you have main street which is filled with stores, Deleware and Elmwood, and they all flow from the downtown. The other differences I noticed in these cities is that Buffalo felt more urban because it had a lot more people per square mile. For that reason it actually felt more urban. Pittsburgh had few people walking around (except downtown) and there were many areas of Pittsburgh that felt like small towns or very few people walking around.
Buffalo has a much higer density of people per square mile than Pittsburgh, therefore, I felt it seemed more Urban. Even if Pittsburgh is larger. And the truth, besides cranberry and some other far out suburbs, whatever population they give for Pitts metro seemed innacurrate. You leave the city fairly easily so how far away are these other counties that they decided to put into Pitts metro. Some of them counties are hours away. To me that population shouldn' t be counted.
And your right Buffalo and Cleveland are both hood. No point in lieing. The best parts of Buffalo are north and south and the suburbs. Everything east or west is hood. I agree Cleveland and Buffalo are more grittier than Pittsburgh.
And as far as your numbers for Buffalo there off. Buffalo is at about 1.2 million not 970,000.
I saw that number a lot of months back and it has been proven to be wrong. That number was for Erie county alone. It didn't add Niagara county, Buffalo's only other county in their metro.
And for the record, all three of those cities are declining. Welcome to the rust belt!
Also for the record, when I say similar I mean more like similar not exact. Cleveland and Pittsburgh are bigger than Buffalo. But you can't discount the fact that Pitt isn't much larger in population. Cleveland is bigger. There is no disputing that either. But for Buffalo you have to consider that it doesn't have the advantage of counting Canada's nearby population. Buffalo's metro now is almost 1.2 million. If you added what if we weren't near Canada, that's atleast 600,000 more. That would bring Buffalo's metro population to 1.8. That's for an area of two, would be three counties. Then you have Rochester 60 miles away. And like I said I know that to be pretty exact, since I have taken that highway many times. Fifteen miles. But I agree as cities, they feel like their own cities. Rochester does share the likes of the Bills and Sabres, but beyond that I'm not sure they're really that connected. Now, but, I think I could almost make that same argument for Cleveland. I never felt like Cleveland and Akron were connected in their CSA. But somehow it happened. Bureaucratic and money I'm sure, since Cleveland's population has been decreasing. They needed that extra count. Ask Akron people if the feel like their in the same metro as Cleveland. They will tell you no. Cleveland can say the same. Similar to Rochester and Buffalo, they might be pretty close, but they aren't really apart. I know people from Akron, and I have never heard either one of them talk about Cleveland. Akron is its own city. Not off the back of Cleveland like some Clevelander's would have you believe. Just like Rochester. So my point is, if you could add Rochester to Buffalo CSA, there numbers since then Batavia and that area would get counted would be an extra 1.2 million. That would give Buffalo a CSA of about 3 or more million. That's pratically the same as Cleveland. They should count it since they easily for other cities count areas nearby, but Buffalo would never get Canada's numbers since it is in another coutry. And as far as the Canadian region not being one continuous development. Are you crazy? All I can say to that is that you have not been there. First off, just Erie county is your 975,000 number. But that is only one county. That doesn't include Niagara county which "IS" Buffalo's Metro. But this notion that Buffalo and Canada aren't connected! Are you serious? Now, I don't think you've been there. For one, the only thing separating Buffalo and Niagara falls (both in the Buffalo region) are bridges. A half a mile from dt Buffalo is one bride, the peace bridge. And the others are in Niagara falls NY. From Niagara falls canada to Fort Erie and everything in between is very continous. It aint farm land chief. It might be more city like then parts of Cleveland. Have you ever been to Niagara Falls Canada? There skyline would give Cleveland a run for their money. And that population is innacurate. That area is more like 600,000. Plus Buffalo and that part of Canada has many visitors. So sometimes Buffalo benefits from that. Buffalo also benefits from many Canadians who go to the Walden Galleria. Buffalos biggest mall. Since it is cheaper for them.
What do Cleveland and Akron have to do with each other? People living in Cleveland day to day, aren't thinking about Akron and vica versa. Sort of like Buffalo and Rochester. As far as Canada, think of it this way. Buffalo gets screwed because it is in another country. That's really the bottom line. Anyway you slice it, because they are indeed connected. Also, by no means is there any gap withing continuing development between Buffalo and that area of Canada. I don't know what your talking about. You act as though from Cleveland to Akron it all looks the same. Any CSA or metro will have the slightest lull. But I don't even see that where you mentioned between Buffalo and Rochester. And trust me Niagara falls Canada is also a pretty fun place to be. That area of Buffalo thrives. Especially more than the American side.
But imagine Cleveland's metro (an area of continuous development) being cut short because will say 35% of their metro laid in another country. So no matter what numbers say, you yourself know that your cities area really has many more people. Plus, you know that between Buffalo and Rochester is continuous development. So, because Buffalo lucked out in every way, by location (proximity to Canada/and fifteen miles less from Rochester, but still continuous development) people who live in Buffalo still understand that their "area" is larger than depicted and much more similar to cities with metro's or CSA's between 2 and three million. That part of Canada and the Buffalo region are very similar.
Last edited by supermanpansy; 08-12-2011 at 01:24 PM..
Where do I start first. When I gave Clevelands numbers I was talking CSA. Rochester and Buffalo downtown to dowtown is an hour. I used to take that alot. Akron to Cleveland is 45 minutes. So, My reason stands. BUffalo and Rochester sort of share Batavia which isn't really a suburb; however, it is almost directly inbetween those two metros. I agree though, Buffalo and Rochester don't really feel connected even though they are only 60 miles apart. Buffalo loses population because of Canada. If you took that population alone, Buffalo's MSA would either be equal too or larger than Milwaukee. And it is only about fifteen miles and Buffalo and Rochester would have been in one CSA, which would have easily been over three million.
As far as Pittsburgh I counted nine, but I'm probably wrong. For the sake of agreeing with you, I'll just take your word for it. But still seven counties to two. No matter how you look at it, it makes a big difference. City to city (and I've lived in both ask me any question if you think I'm lieing) Buffalo and Pittsburgh seem big in different ways. Downtown seems a bit larger than downtown Buffalo. However in Pitt, you only really have the strip area that extends. Some of their other areas are far away from downtown, ex shadyside, Oakland, Squirrel hill, etc. In Buffalo you have main street which is filled with stores, Deleware and Elmwood, and they all flow from the downtown. The other differences I noticed in these cities is that Buffalo felt more urban because it had a lot more people per square mile. For that reason it actually felt more urban. Pittsburgh had few people walking around (except downtown) and there were many areas of Pittsburgh that felt like small towns or very few people walking around.
Buffalo has a much higer density of people per square mile than Pittsburgh, therefore, I felt it seemed more Urban. Even if Pittsburgh is larger. And the truth, besides cranberry and some other far out suburbs, whatever population they give for Pitts metro seemed innacurrate. You leave the city fairly easily so how far away are these other counties that they decided to put into Pitts metro. Some of them counties are hours away. To me that population shouldn' t be counted.
And your right Buffalo and Cleveland are both hood. No point in lieing. The best parts of Buffalo are north and south and the suburbs. Everything east or west is hood. I agree Cleveland and Buffalo are more grittier than Pittsburgh.
And as far as your numbers for Buffalo there off. Buffalo is at about 1.2 million not 970,000.
I saw that number a lot of months back and it has been proven to be wrong. That number was for Erie county alone. It didn't add Niagara county, Buffalo's only other county in their metro.
And for the record, all three of those cities are declining. Welcome to the rust belt!
Also for the record, when I say similar I mean more like similar not exact. Cleveland and Pittsburgh are bigger than Buffalo. But you can't discount the fact that Pitt isn't much larger in population. Cleveland is bigger. There is no disputing that either. But for Buffalo you have to consider that it doesn't have the advantage of counting Canada's nearby population. Buffalo's metro now is almost 1.2 million. If you added what if we weren't near Canada, that's atleast 600,000 more. That would bring Buffalo's metro population to 1.8. That's for an area of two, would be three counties. Then you have Rochester 60 miles away. And like I said I know that to be pretty exact, since I have taken that highway many times. Fifteen miles. But I agree as cities, they feel like their own cities. Rochester does share the likes of the Bills and Sabres, but beyond that I'm not sure they're really that connected. Now, but, I think I could almost make that same argument for Cleveland. I never felt like Cleveland and Akron were connected in their CSA. But somehow it happened. Bureaucratic and money I'm sure, since Cleveland's population has been decreasing. They needed that extra count. Ask Akron people if the feel like their in the same metro as Cleveland. They will tell you no. Cleveland can say the same. Similar to Rochester and Buffalo, they might be pretty close, but they aren't really apart. I know people from Akron, and I have never heard either one of them talk about Cleveland. Akron is its own city. Not off the back of Cleveland like some Clevelander's would have you believe. Just like Rochester. So my point is, if you could add Rochester to Buffalo CSA, there numbers since then Batavia and that area would get counted would be an extra 1.2 million. That would give Buffalo a CSA of about 3 or more million. That's pratically the same as Cleveland. They should count it since they easily for other cities count areas nearby, but Buffalo would never get Canada's numbers since it is in another coutry. And as far as the Canadian region not being one continuous development. Are you crazy? All I can say to that is that you have not been there. First off, just Erie county is your 975,000 number. But that is only one county. That doesn't include Niagara county which "IS" Buffalo's Metro. But this notion that Buffalo and Canada aren't connected! Are you serious? Now, I don't think you've been there. For one, the only thing separating Buffalo and Niagara falls (both in the Buffalo region) are bridges. A half a mile from dt Buffalo is one bride, the peace bridge. And the others are in Niagara falls NY. From Niagara falls canada to Fort Erie and everything in between is very continous. It aint farm land chief. It might be more city like then parts of Cleveland. Have you ever been to Niagara Falls Canada? There skyline would give Cleveland a run for their money. And that population is innacurate. That area is more like 600,000. Plus Buffalo and that part of Canada has many visitors. So sometimes Buffalo benefits from that. Buffalo also benefits from many Canadians who go to the Walden Galleria. Buffalos biggest mall. Since it is cheaper for them.
What do Cleveland and Akron have to do with each other? People living in Cleveland day to day, aren't thinking about Akron and vica versa. Sort of like Buffalo and Rochester. As far as Canada, think of it this way. Buffalo gets screwed because it is in another country. That's really the bottom line. Anyway you slice it, because they are indeed connected. Also, by no means is there any gap withing continuing development between Buffalo and that area of Canada. I don't know what your talking about. You act as though from Cleveland to Akron it all looks the same. Any CSA or metro will have the slightest lull. But I don't even see that where you mentioned between Buffalo and Rochester. And trust me Niagara falls Canada is also a pretty fun place to be. That area of Buffalo thrives. Especially more than the American side.
But imagine Cleveland's metro (an area of continuous development) being cut short because will say 35% of their metro laid in another country. So no matter what numbers say, you yourself know that your cities area really has many more people. Plus, you know that between Buffalo and Rochester is continuous development. So, because Buffalo lucked out in every way, by location (proximity to Canada/and fifteen miles less from Rochester, but still continuous development) people who live in Buffalo still understand that their "area" is larger than depicted and much more similar to cities with metro's or CSA's between 2 and three million. That part of Canada and the Buffalo region are very similar.
You are wrong in sooooo many ways. Pittsburgh could easliy count West Virginia and Ohio Counties in its metro...... The Airport cooridor is closer to those states than some inner ring eastern suburban commuities. Buffalo and Cleveland will have more people per square mile since the cities are totally flat. 30% of Pittsburghs land area is uninhabitable due to steep hills and cliffs. The areas that are developed are way more dense than any Buffalo neighborhood ex. Lawrenceville, Southside Flats, Manchester, Duechtown. Pittsburgh neighborhoods have lots of foot traffic, we are not an auto centric city. Pittsburgh's Oakland neighborhood in larger and more dense that downtown Buffalo. Oakland is the third largest business district in PA behind Center City Philadelphia and Downtown Pittsburgh.
I'm not lying when I say 90% of your post is incorrect. I'm going off of stats and facts, you're going off your own personal bias. It's obvious to see. Where to start...
Hmm, well google maps says Cleveland-Akron is 43-45 mins and Buffalo-Rochester is 1 hr 15 mins-1 hr 20 mins. So somebody must be wrong. I can get from DT Cleveland to DT Akron in under 40 mins, I have drove Buffalo-Rochester before several times each way and it's definitely over an hour 10 mins. Buffalo would only be the same size as Milwaukee, again, if you included the entire Niagara Region of Canada, which stretches nearly to Hamilton. And Milwaukees metro is growing, Buffalos is not. And Rochester and Buffalo in the same CSA??? lol, they have nothing but farms in between them, 15 mins closer would just mean there's 40 mins of farms instead of 55. And even if you add the Canadian portion plus the 2 extra counties this imaginary Buffalo/Rochester CSA would only have 2.6 million. Buffalos CSA includes 3 counties (not 2), so I highly doubt you knew that Akron wasn't in Clevelands metro you just won't admit that you were wrong... BTW Downtown Rochester to DT Buffalo is 75 miles, not 60. Even to each urban area edge is nearly 50 miles apart. DT Cleveland and DT Akron are 39 miles apart drive, the urban edges overlap there's no distance between them. And Canton is 59 miles from DT Cleveland... once again it's continuous development. Youngstown is 74 miles from DT Cleveland the same distance as Buffalo-Rochester, and only 22 miles from urban edge... much closer than Buffalo-Rochester.
Pittsburghs metro includes 7 counties, this stuff takes seconds to look up. And Buffalos main county is over 1,000 sq miles of land area, half the size of all 5 counties Cleveland metro. Buffalo only has a higher density because of Pittsburghs terrain, it's very hilly and much of the city and metros land area can't be built on. Pittsburgh is actually built denser and more urban. I actually found Pittsburghs worst areas to look and feel worse than Cleveland and Buffalos worst areas, but Cleveland and Buffalo do have more bad areas in total and portion of the city. I said "urban area" look it up, it's different than metro. Buffalo is actually under 970k now those were 2000 numbers, all are lower (link: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/ua/ua2k.txt ). What are you talking about if Buffalo wasn't near Canada? 1st of all the Niagara Region of Canada is 430k not 600k... Do you mean literally move Buffalo further away from the border, or if the Canadian border didn't matter or exist so they're numbers would count for Buffalo? Once again yes I've been to Buffalo and Niagara Falls plenty of times including the Canadian portion, I've visited/lived in Buffalo and Niagara Falls (NY) for months before.
And you obviously have no clue about the real connection between Cleveland and Akron. 1st of all they are in bordering counties (unlike Buffalo and Rochester). The MSA/CSA designations are mainly based on commuting patterns. There are majority Cleveland commuter suburbs in Summit County, and most the rest are shared commuter suburbs. Cleveland/Akron is simply a "merged" area and has been for decades, Buffalo and Rochester are not, nowhere near it. The "Cleveland" Cavaliers used to play at the Richfield Colliseum, which was actually in Summit County and closer to DT Akron than DT Cleveland. They are in the same media market (as is Canton), Buffalo and Rochester are not. The area between Cleveland and Akron (and Cleveland-Canton) is entirely built up excluding the National Park, while Buffalo and Rochester have nearly 50 miles of farms and open land between them. Cleveland and Akron are without a doubt far more connected and merged than Buffalo and Rochester, so is Cleveland-Canton (by far), even Cleveland-Youngstown/Warren is arguably more connected than Buffalo-Rochester, it's the same distance and there's actually much less empty land between Cleveland and Youngstown. BTW I know plenty of people in Akron and Summit County who consider themselves "Clevelanders" (on some level), obviously it's all Cleveland sports, and Cleveland has their more minor league affiliates present and future in Akron and Canton.
You seriously have no clue what you're talking about. You've probably never even been to Cleveland/Akron/NE Ohio before.
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Facts
