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Historical importance is critical in any discussion pertaining to heirarchy.
To a certain degree, but not to the extent you're making it out to be. Otherwise, cities like Charleston, New Orleans, Richmond, Annapolis, etc. would all be ranked in the top 20 nationwide, at least.
Philadelphia can make a solid case for itself given its present standing.
Historical importance is critical in any discussion pertaining to heirarchy.
Who is more important in the grand scheme of things? John D. Rockefeller or Biff Rockefeller the III who is schlepping around South Beach living off of Great great grandpops fortune?
Without the Philadlephia regions past historical prowess Houston today could arguably be a poor drug infested Mexican barrio .
And if you want to compare apples to apples Philadlephias regional GDP at 10,000 sq miles(like Houstons) would dwarf Houstons economic impact.Thats without infringing on NYC or Baltimores metro.
I don't think most people are placing all that much weight on historical importance for this topic. I'm certainly not.
Also, the 10,000 square miles thing has been addressed over and over again. The vast majority of Houston's population and economic output are in a much smaller space that is comparable to the Delaware Valley metro. Not all of Houston's weight isn't on how populous it is (and the corresponding GMP and media market to go with it), but on its strong showing in one sector in particular and its being the headquarters of many very large corporations (thus making Houston a place where a lot of influential decisions are made and a place where those decision-makers live).
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-14-2010 at 01:31 PM..
And if you want to compare apples to apples Philadlephias regional GDP at 10,000 sq miles(like Houstons) would dwarf Houstons economic impact.Thats without infringing on NYC or Baltimores metro.
Yeah, but that is infringing on other standalone metros. Besides, its been discussed already that over 90% of Greater Houston lives in 4-5 core cou nties whose combined area is only slightly larger than Philly's, and trust me , Houston's GMP would decrease by only the slightest.
Yes, Philly is important, but stating things from the past to make Philly seem important in the PRESENT, usually isn't a good argument.
I don't think most people are placing all that much weight on historical importance for this topic. I'm certainly not.
Also, the 10,000 square miles thing has been addressed over and over again. The vast majority of Houston's population and economic output are in a much smaller space that is comparable to the Delaware Valley metro. Not all of Houston's weight isn't on how populous it is (and the corresponding GMP and media market to go with it), but on its strong showing in one sector in particular and its being the headquarters of many very large corporations (thus making Houston a place where a lot of influential decisions are made and a place where those decision-makers live).
I am not sure I completely agree with the end of your statement. I think on commerce Philly (as the census cuts it now) would be right there with Houston, Also a company like Vangaurd would be huge on the list, but is private, not included in these lists. Also all finacial markets get closed and reconciled mostly by SEI another huge Philly company. not to mention numerous US headquarters of foreign corps where in the Pharma industry the Vast majority of decisions are made, seriously. Plus for better or worse the census cuts areas out so not counted in the GMP counts (where it is already pretty comparable) but the people still live in the area that make these decisions, some of these companies are like 15 miles from city hall, the census can not articulate the influence associated because it just says, no they are not attached when in reality, meaning the way people live they absolutely are. But to use the GMP metric could in all seriousness be reducing the Philly influence by as much as 33%, and this is not boosterism, this is a reflection of how the real world operates, not a census designation based on municipal boundary, that is actually not real world.
And this is nitpicking at Houston but people talk about places like Galveston and the port of Houston, these places are further away from Downtown Houston than are places like Allentown, Reading, AC, Lancaster, Trenton/Plainsboro/Princeton/Hightstown etc are from CityHall in Philly. The MSAs that are closer than these include more than 2 million people and big GDP and GMP and intertwine everyday.
Edit to Southmore, the areas that are firmly intertwined in the real world are satalite MSAs, but remember the areas are all close, 20, 30, 40 minute drives, and because of how the NE developed, commuter patterns are core focused and much smaller counties, so even though the satalite MSAs do not shre the commuter patterns, the intertwined commerce was always there, to me this point is always missed. I mean some of the MSAs you reference would all fit in Houstons borders, almost like the multiple cbds in houston, but here they are a little bigger and are classified as different MSAs, seriously i think this point gets missed, especially by Census metrics.
I mean serously if the borders were drawn differently, Mercer or Even Allentown could all be in Harris county PA, at that point there would be no funky commuter dynamic, because the cores would all be self contained, thus all counted as one area by the census, it is this point that is missed, and no the 10,000 is not required, more like an additional 1,500, remember almost all of the Philly MSA is UA, then directly attaching is a few other MSAs that are also UA.
ok rant really over
Last edited by kidphilly; 08-14-2010 at 02:32 PM..
The other thing I will say is with the Philly MSA and CSA, they are the only two majors where i have never seen an argument that they are adding too much, I have seen this argument with every other area, Atlanta, in Alabama, LA and what is in and out, NYC, even many counties, some even suggested should be part of Philly. There is an interesting truth to no one ever arguing Philly is getting too much in these designations, it isnt and more likely is not getting some it should, just an observation.
Nah, there's not enough going on in Philly. Philly is more of a place where people end up rather than a place they actively try to get to. It's not a city for strivers.
never thought of it that way, but you might have a point there
Sorry gang but Philadelphia is #4. Based on historical influence you could probably make the argument that Philadelphia was the #2 city in the country.
Fixed that for you.
Thanks again for another post that wreaks of sour-grapes. I think the biggest problem people have with your posts is that you come into a highly-debatable subject and act as if what you say is fact rather than opinion. Philadelphia certainly has an argument for being the #4 or 5 city in the country...but there's no "right" answer, and that's why this thread has topped 65 pages.
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No offense to Houston but the idea that Houston is even considered on this list ahead of Philadlephia is mindblowing.Philadlephia is the original city which has been at the very least one of the top 3 regions in this country for 75% of its existence, top 5 for 100% of its existence. Again no offense but The idea that a newbie sprawling region like Houston is more important than Philadephia just doesnt wash with me. 40 years ago Houston was a farming community with 300,000 people and a metro 1/6th the size of Philadephia.
And now it's a city of comparable size with a larger GDP (even if you think the MSA borders are unfair--which I think they are--that's how the BEA is measuring it.) Houston and Dallas have a pretty solid stranglehold on what is probably considered the second most valuable resource we have.
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Washington isnt a city in the true sense of the word, rather its a governmental inbred commune where million dollar museums and billion + trillion dollar federal contracts are handed out with shocking regularity. It's a joke to compare Washington to a historical selfmade juggernaut like Philadelphia. Washington shouldnt be the capitol . Washington is nothing but a stage prop for all the history that happened in real cities such as Philadelphia New York Boston and Baltimore. This is a travesty what is going on in DC with Ivory Castle mentality. Go build another $300 M dollar museum in DC while cities that built this country like Detroit,Flint and Toledo crumble in ruins. Unbelievable.
I'm sure Philadelphia had many unfair advantages earlier in its life as a result of being the nation's capitol. Washington may be nothing but a stage prop for other cities like New York, Philly, Boston, Baltimore, Charleston, etc...but it is there now and it is extremely important. You may hate the city for taking away the Capitol from Philadelphia, but just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can ignore its power/influence.
Something tells me if that $300M museum was being built in Philadelphia instead of DC, you wouldn't be nearly as disgusted.
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SF despite its acclaim and bloated, narcissistic,self absorbed mindset still cant match the regional influence and overall historical importance that Philadlephia has.
The regional influence of San Francisco is far greater than that of Philadelphia. I don't understand how that's even debatable. Philadelphia is surrounded by three other major cities, two of which have greater influence than Philadelphia. San Francisco is near one other major city and it is unquestionably more influential than San Jose. The Bay Area has a larger economy than Philadelphia and is the epicenter of the high-tech and biotech world.
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Boston? Lets keep it real here. Back in the day while Boston was pontificating and bickering about the rights/or lack-there-of race/equal rights/soverneignty/religion/ state politics, down yonder in Philadelphia we actually executed a plan to begin a new country.
We you say? Maybe you should take your own advice and "get real" here. First off, Boston played more than a small role in creating this country. Most major anti-British movements before the revolution took place in this area...and the revolution was started here.
Second, of the 56 people to sign the Declaration of Independence, 9 were from Pennsylvania. I'm sure there was plenty of social turmoil up in Boston...but let's not forget the President of the Continental Congress while "you" were beginning a new country was a Bostonian. This wasn't a Philadelphia operation. It was an American operation.
Since then, Boston has become the educational Mecca of the world and life sciences/medical research center of the country. It's the #3 financial services center in the country and #3 high tech, #2 in biotech, and #1 nanotech center in the country.
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In this below photo comprises The First____ of the USA. Church,Museum,Theater,University,Hospital,Skyscrap er,. You name it and " The First___ in the USA is probably somewhere in that photo. And that has to stand for something!
You know what it means? It means that Philadelphia has an incredibly rich past. Philadelphia is a fantastic city, and it is extremely important. But you're so damn hung up on what it has done and not what it is doing or going to do. That's what makes a city important today and what will allow it to be important tomorrow.
Like I said before, Philadelphia may have an argument to be the #4 or 5 city in the country. But to ignore the influence and accomplishments of other cities in this country is downright ignorant.
Location: The land of sugar... previously Houston and Austin
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Originally Posted by kidphilly
And this is nitpicking at Houston but people talk about places like Galveston and the port of Houston, these places are further away from Downtown Houston than are places like Allentown, Reading, AC, Lancaster, Trenton/Plainsboro/Princeton/Hightstown etc are from CityHall in Philly.
The Port of Houston is only about 5 miles east of downtown.
The Port of Galveston is a totally separate entity, about 45 miles southeast of downtown Houston.
The Port of Houston is only about 5 miles east of downtown.
The Port of Galveston is a totally separate entity, about 45 miles southeast of downtown Houston.
Maybe 5 miles (probably closer to 10 miles) east of the outer loop (or the tollway) at least 20-25 miles from Downtown Houston. Re-affirms my point actually when I went back to the map, there are areas that would be within the outer loop or tollway in relative distance that are excluded from the Philly MSA, Pasadena would be miles into what the census considers the next MSA here. It is beyond rediculous
The Woodlands are further than what the census considers 4 seperate MSAs here
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The Port of Houston is only about 5 miles east of downtown. 
